2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

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parnell
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2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Hello all ,

I bought a 2012 Citroen C8 from a used car guy 2 weeks ago - with 1 year/20000kms warranty here in Switzerland. We drove it 2500 kms to my wife's parents in the Czech republic and back. The morning after the overnight stop in Munich on the way back I couldnt engage reverse at all and over the next 400kms the gear engaging became progressively more difficult. The clutch travel is very low - maybe 2cm /3 cm max.

We went back to the original dealer - he looked through the warranty and pointed out that it didn't cover either the dual mass flywheel or the clutch as these were wearing parts.

Do we actually need a new clutch ? If so would you recommend also changing the DMF ? Which kit would you recommend ?
Is it possible/likely that its the clutch slave or master cylinder ?

We might just have to engage a lawyer of course but I'm just trying to learn as much as possible about the job and maybe even if I could undertake it myself. Thanks for any/all help.
Last edited by parnell on 02 Jun 2022, 17:53, edited 1 time in total.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165

Post by GiveMeABreak »

This does not sound like the clutch or DMF on the outset from what you have said, If it were either of those, then you would have noticed a slipping in gear (usually 5th / 6th when accelerating).

What you describe sounds like a gearbox issue to me. If that were the case, then that should be warranty covered - so make sure you get it properly diagnosed.

However it may also be related to the hydraulic clutch control. There are various tests that would need to be undertaken including measuring the travel of the slave cylinder from when the declutched to clutched position is made and comparing values. There are other checks, but all these need undertaking to determine the casue, so I don't see how they can just fob you off with getting a new clutch and DMF!

Aside from that and to answer your other question - generally speaking, yes, when you replace the clutch it makes good financial sense to replace the DMF at the same time given the labour costs involved (as it's a time intensive job). A DMF very likely won't see out a second clutch and that means all the labour costs again.

Pop your VIN up for me (automasked on post submission) and I'll check the gearbox you have.
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

We have not noticed any gear slippage at all - but we have only had it for a short time. However yesterday morning when I drove it to the original dealer and was struggling to put it into reverse I put my boot down as hard as I could on the clutch pedal and it got stuck - I pulled it back by hand and it returned to regular operation.

VIN number is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].

I should also say thank you very much Marc - I have been reading an awful lot of your posts in the last 24 hours - if I can contribute to the forum in any way (hosting fees etc.) please let me know.
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165

Post by parnell »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 17:47

However it may also be related to the hydraulic clutch control. There are various tests that would need to be undertaken including measuring the travel of the slave cylinder from when the declutched to clutched position is made and comparing values. There are other checks, but all these need undertaking to determine the casue, so I don't see how they can just fob you off with getting a new clutch and DMF!
They explained to me that they sold the car to the dealer `(who sold it to me) and had no interest in fixing the car at all. Any detail you could help provide to me about diagnosing is extremely appreciated.
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by Rp0thejester »

As an 06 C8 driver I'm intrigued. I've even subscribed to this topic. If Marc can't answer it no one can. When you say the gear engaging got progressively worse, was that in all gears throughout the gear box range?
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Rp0thejester wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 18:50
As an 06 C8 driver I'm intrigued. I've even subscribed to this topic. If Marc can't answer it no one can. When you say the gear engaging got progressively worse, was that in all gears throughout the gear box range?
Yup... funnily enough it was a lot better the next day. I just watched this :
and am nearly convinced it is a bad slave cylinder.

Hence next question - is there a seperate resorvoir for the slave cylinder that I can check its level at ?
Thanks again.
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by Rp0thejester »

I know it sounds stupid, have you checked the gearbox oil level? Just wondering if its overheating the gear exchange/mechanism and once cooled works okay again.
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by wheeler »

parnell wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 19:02

Hence next question - is there a seperate resorvoir for the slave cylinder that I can check its level at ?
Thanks again.
No, the reservoir is shared with the brake fluid reservoir.
I'd say this is almost certainly a hydraulic issue, If you rapidly pump the clutch pedal a few times does it get any better at all. If the slave cylinder is externally leaking it should be visible on the gearbox casing & you would likely see a few drips on the ground. Also worth pulling the rubber boot back on the cylinder incase its dripping inside that & you cant see it externally.
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

I
Rp0thejester wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 19:15
I know it sounds stupid, have you checked the gearbox oil level? Just wondering if its overheating the gear exchange/mechanism and once cooled works okay again.
Nothing at all stupid about it - Im very happy to check anything and everything myself. I know how to do this on my BMW but no idea on the Citroen C8 - do I need to take a wheel off to get at the gearbox and (guessing here) there are two bolts - the fill bolt at the top - and the drain bolt at the bottom.
So you're suggesting I remove the fill bolt and see if anything comes out and/or add oil to bring it up to the level of the fill bolt? Any idea of the correct oil to use? It's a manual gearbox.
Last edited by parnell on 02 Jun 2022, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

wheeler wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 19:43
parnell wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 19:02

Hence next question - is there a seperate resorvoir for the slave cylinder that I can check its level at ?
Thanks again.
No, the reservoir is shared with the brake fluid reservoir.
I'd say this is almost certainly a hydraulic issue, If you rapidly pump the clutch pedal a few times does it get any better at all. If the slave cylinder is externally leaking it should be visible on the gearbox casing & you would likely see a few drips on the ground. Also worth pulling the rubber boot back on the cylinder incase its dripping inside that & you cant see it externally.
Excellent suggestions and thank you - will get on those tests. One thing that annoyed me a bit was the seller promised me a full service but didnt bother to do a brake fluid flush - one had been done according to the service book for every 2 years prior. There was certainly nothing noticeable on the ground beforehand but now I'm going to look an awful lot closer and report back.

Just so I understand your test - you're saying:
1) pump the clutch pedal rapidly
2) with the engine on or off or does that matter at all
3) see if the clutch pedal suddenly seems to firm up
4) and if engine on does that make gear selection suddenly easy
?
Last edited by parnell on 02 Jun 2022, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165

Post by GiveMeABreak »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 17:47
However it may also be related to the hydraulic clutch control. There are various tests that would need to be undertaken including measuring the travel of the slave cylinder from when the declutched to clutched position is made and comparing values. There are other checks, but all these need undertaking to determine the casue, so I don't see how they can just fob you off with getting a new clutch and DMF!
With regard to what I said above and what Wheeler has chipped in with, this is the diagram of the slave cylinder and where the travel is measured from.
C8 clutch slave.PNG
Check the travel of the hydraulic slave cylinder or of the clutch cable, from the declutched position to the clutched position.
N.B. : Two people are required to perform the following operation.

Clutch Fork:
  • "a" : Applied position
  • "b" : Released position
Press the clutch pedal.
Measure the travel "A" of the hydraulic slave cylinder or of the clutch cable.
The travel value measured should be 20mm.

If the value is not correct then check the travel of the hydraulic master cylinder.

Checking the travel of the clutch hydraulic master cylinder
C8 clutch master.PNG
Clutch pedal:
  • "B" : Applied position (In millimetres)
  • "C" : Released position (In millimetres)
Measure the declutch travel: "D" = "C" - "B".
The correct value should be 28mm.
If the value is incorrect, then this usually means replacing the hydraulic clutch control (master cylinder, pipe and slave cylinder).
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Thanks so much Marc... I'll get the missus to help out with the tests over the weekend and will report back.
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by Rp0thejester »

Please let us know what happens, I'm intrigued!!
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165

Post by parnell »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 20:14
GiveMeABreak wrote:
02 Jun 2022, 17:47
However it may also be related to the hydraulic clutch control. There are various tests that would need to be undertaken including measuring the travel of the slave cylinder from when the declutched to clutched position is made and comparing values. There are other checks, but all these need undertaking to determine the casue, so I don't see how they can just fob you off with getting a new clutch and DMF!
With regard to what I said above and what Wheeler has chipped in with, this is the diagram of the slave cylinder and where the travel is measured from.

Image

Check the travel of the hydraulic slave cylinder or of the clutch cable, from the declutched position to the clutched position.
N.B. : Two people are required to perform the following operation.

Clutch Fork:
  • "a" : Applied position
  • "b" : Released position
Press the clutch pedal.
Measure the travel "A" of the hydraulic slave cylinder or of the clutch cable.
The travel value measured should be 20mm.

If the value is not correct then check the travel of the hydraulic master cylinder.
So as far as our first test went (and I'm not entirely sure we got this done perfectly) we measured this at 17mm - will test again tomorrow and test the master cylinder travel (might have to remove some plastic covers to get an accurate measurement).

Also the seller and his garage said that they will probably take care of a clutch replacement if necessary - which is good as the lawyer said that they couldnt help much. I told him that I'd happy to contribute something if it comes to that to get the best quality parts - please guys tell me what is the best brand to use for the DMF and clutch kit if it comes to that.

Pumping the clutch with the engine off didnt seem to have any noticeable effect. No sign of any leak AT ALL from the clutch slave cylinder...
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Consider getting original parts from Citroen if you want OEM quality - but LUK or Valeo clutches are used as OEM parts.

If you want original Citroen part numbers for both we can supply these, but as we are charged for this data, we ask for a membership upgrade for this service:

If you can't already find the info you need on the Forum, we do ask for a membership upgrade for official parts data as we are in turn charged for this. It will cover you for future parts requests for up to 2 years, so excellent value.

If interested, links are below, then pop your VIN up.
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