Failed to proceed!

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Gibbo2286
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Pull the pump fuse you describe (to stop the in-tank pump) and try to run the engine with fuel via the primer bulb from a can of diesel.
mikeyb1949
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by mikeyb1949 »

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time and trouble to respond to my plea for help, some of you have gone to great lengths to provide a lot of info. However, whilst I don't wish to appear ungrateful, I can't buy into the idea that the car should not have both a lift pump and a primer bulb, or that someone in the past has wrongly fitted a lift pump. My reasons for this are:
1. Absolutely everything appears to be factory fitted, including wiring, piping, clips etc.
2. The Haynes manual ( not always 100% accurate I know, I've been using them for 40 years or more) states in it's introduction to the Diesel fuel system....."System consists of a rear-mounted fuel tank with an immersed fuel pump/level sensor...." and , "The low pressure system consists of a fuel tank and fuel pump.......this system is responsible for supplying fuel to the high pressure system..." Further on in the section, it explains how to remove this pump, together with pictures. It also shows pictures of the primer bulb, and explains how this is used to prime the system.
3. In the Owners Manual that came with the car it shows which fuse operates the tank mounted pump.
So, with all the above in mind I'm sure that you can see why I cannot believe that this car has anything other than a standard set-up. Don't forget, it's a Citroen, and they do tend to chop and change specs at a whim. Also, please bear in mind that the car was running fine for the several months that my son owned it prior to this problem occurring.
We have a lift pump and that's that. It works perfectly, fuel flows into and through the filter as far as the high pressure pump, but the car won't fire. So, something is telling the starter to stop turning the engine over for more than a few revolutions. What and why? I have now removed the crankshaft sensor ( I mentioned earlier that the rev counter did not register when cranking the engine) tested it and it appears to be duff. I now have one on order so will see what happens next week when it arrives. That's it for now, I'm off to play with my classics for a bit, they're simple, reliable and cheap to repair. Such is progress, Pah! TTFN folks.
Gibbo2286
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by Gibbo2286 »

My car is the same as yours as far as I can see, C5 2.0 litre HDI 2006 with DPF and it most certainly doesn't have an in tank pump, just the primer bulb, the high pressure pump does all the lifting once primed.

Disregarding the pump question I wonder if your problem lies in the fuel filter, could the fuel flow be getting blocked at that point? Maybe just getting a dribble through enough to fire it up for a few seconds.

Ps. I have had earlier C5s and had cause to change the in tank pump when one has failed
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

mikeyb1949 wrote:
12 May 2019, 11:19
I can't buy into the idea that the car should not have both a lift pump and a primer bulb, or that someone in the past has wrongly fitted a lift pump. My reasons for this are:
1. Absolutely everything appears to be factory fitted, including wiring, piping, clips etc.
2. The Haynes manual ( not always 100% accurate I know, I've been using them for 40 years or more) states in it's introduction to the Diesel fuel system....."System consists of a rear-mounted fuel tank with an immersed fuel pump/level sensor...." and , "The low pressure system consists of a fuel tank and fuel pump.......this system is responsible for supplying fuel to the high pressure system..." Further on in the section, it explains how to remove this pump, together with pictures. It also shows pictures of the primer bulb, and explains how this is used to prime the system.
3. In the Owners Manual that came with the car it shows which fuse operates the tank mounted pump.
So, with all the above in mind I'm sure that you can see why I cannot believe that this car has anything other than a standard set-up. Don't forget, it's a Citroen, and they do tend to chop and change specs at a whim. Also, please bear in mind that the car was running fine for the several months that my son owned it prior to this problem occurring.
We have a lift pump and that's that. It works perfectly, fuel flows into and through the filter as far as the high pressure pump, but the car won't fire. So, something is telling the starter to stop turning the engine over for more than a few revolutions. What and why? I have now removed the crankshaft sensor ( I mentioned earlier that the rev counter did not register when cranking the engine) tested it and it appears to be duff. I now have one on order so will see what happens next week when it arrives. That's it for now, I'm off to play with my classics for a bit, they're simple, reliable and cheap to repair. Such is progress, Pah! TTFN folks.
Well, if you need convincing, here is the official diagram for your vehicle (and I had one of these too) that shows the tank with the gauge - and as you can clearly see from item 2 description to confirm what has been said "Gauge Without Pump":

Click Image to Zoom
Fuel Tank.PNG
Forget Haynes they are useless and do not cover all the models.

Compare the above with an earlier Xantia HDi Turbo Diesel that does have a pump with the gauge:
Fuel tanks 2.PNG
The wiring and connectors will be for the gauge assembly and for informing the engine ECU of fuel levels and for calculating additive quantity that needs to be injected etc.

The fuel, once primed with the bulb, should be drawn from a part of the high pressure pump as I indicated on the earlier diagram for the Siemens system.
mikeyb1949
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by mikeyb1949 »

OK, so now you've really got me intrigued Marc, so I removed the "yellowish thing" from the tank, and found a float and sender, and in the middle of the unit what , to me, looks suspiciously like a pump. If my photos upload, you'll see what I found. I really can't think of anything that the silver tubular shaped device is other than a pump. There is a pipe connecting it to the outlet elbow on the top face, and a red wire and black wire connecting it to the connector block also on the top face.! I'd value your comments. Mike.
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admiral51
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by admiral51 »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:
10 May 2019, 22:46
admiral51 wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:50
@ mikeyb1949

I could be wrong ( usually am lol ) but if you can get hold of the person you borrowed the lexia from they should be able to go into the history and recover the fault codes from your global/diagnostic session, should be recorded under the Vin#.
Gonna hide now as arrows and bullets will be coming my way

As far as I know you are NOT wrong this time :D , but it does require (IIRC) that the trace was saved when the software was closed.


For once in my history of posting on this forum i may be correct :-D

Just checked on the laptop i use for my Lexia and even though i have never saved a session i can look back at every session on my laptop for 2 vehicles so maybe it saves it as standard [-o<
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by admiral51 »

Need a picture of a sender with a pump for comparison but every image i can find online for the part # listed shows the pictures above ??
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Here's a 'Sender Unit' part number 1613302580 that would be for your C5 if replaced - brand new Bosch only £34 inc. VAT - so obviously has no pump unit.
sender unit.PNG
Here's the wiring diagram showing the 2 wires fo the sender unit:
Fuel Gauge Sneder.PNG
Fuel Gauge Sneder.PNG (9.04 KiB) Viewed 77 times

And here on the injection wiring diagram - items circled with 'marching ants' indicate optional equipment - that may or may not be fitted. 1208 is the Injection Pump - of which the pump component is not fitted.
Injection Diagram.PNG
Injection Diagram.PNG (20.43 KiB) Viewed 77 times

So back on my original diagram Item 14 is the pre-supply transfer pump - built into the High pressure fuel pump.
mikeyb1949
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by mikeyb1949 »

I have 4 wires going to the top of that unit, and 4 wires underneath, 2 from the level sensor and 2 from the pump. So are you saying that the wiring would always be there irrespective of whether or not it is needed in a particular car, and that someone has substituted a unit with a pump when I should have one without? If this is the case, then I should be able just to substitute a pipe for the pump which would then act as a pickup pipe. This then puts me back to square one. i.e. the starter only runs for a couple of seconds before switching itself off. I then have to switch off the ignition, turn it on again, and the procedure starts all over again. Something is preventing the starter from turning the motor over for more than 2 seconds. I've never experienced this before, usually you can turn the engine over and over until the battery is flat! Mike.
Gibbo2286
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by Gibbo2286 »

mikeyb1949 's pictures are certainly of a sender with pump, so there's confusion all round on this. :shock:
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Popped out and took photo of the top of mine for comparison.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by Zelandeth »

The wiring will be there irrespective of whether your vehicle originally had a pump fitted or not.

As with most modern cars the loom is standardised across most of the range. While it might cost them a bit more in materials, just being able to plug the relevant components in and flash the ECUs with the right software simplifies the production line process.

Wouldn't be much evidence of the pump/sender unit being replaced really.

Seems surprising to me that it wouldn't have caused issues beforehand but stranger things have happened.
mikeyb1949
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by mikeyb1949 »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
12 May 2019, 19:29
Popped out and took photo of the top of mine for comparison.

Image

Apart from the colour (perhaps it's just dirty) that looks exactly like mine when it's installed.
wheeler
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by wheeler »

If you take the plug off the tank unit there will only be 2 terminals on the tank unit (not the wiring loom) if it is just a sender & 4 terminals if it a combined pump/sender.
mikeyb1949
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Re: Failed to proceed!

Post by mikeyb1949 »

wheeler wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:17
If you take the plug off the tank unit there will only be 2 terminals on the tank unit (not the wiring loom) if it is just a sender & 4 terminals if it a combined pump/sender.

Yep, 4 terminals on mine.