Citroen Saxo gearboxes

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JohnD
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Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by JohnD »

I have a low mileage diesel Saxo with a faulty synchromesh on second gear. I've had a gearbox mechanic look at it and he's quoting silly money to do the job. There are lots of Saxo for sale at knock down prices. Thing is they are mostly petrol models. Does anyone know if gearboxes are interchangeable between petrols and diesels?

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I doubt it very much, there are 8 plus gearbox variants across the petrol ranges, yet alone the diesel option.

2205FY is the original diesel box part number

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white exec
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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by white exec »

How bad is the synchromesh problem? What are the symptoms?

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by xantia_v6 »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 17:15
I doubt it very much, there are 8 plus gearbox variants across the petrol ranges, yet alone the diesel option.

2205FY is the original diesel box part number

It might be useful to look up which other PSA models used that box.

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by GiveMeABreak »

It was also used on the AX Diesel and on a Peugeot 106. That’s it from what I can see.

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by JohnD »

white exec wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 18:20
How bad is the synchromesh problem? What are the symptoms?


Unless revs are very low, it crunches when going from 1st to 2nd gear. Also when going from 3rd to 2nd in crunches. All the other gear changes are fine.

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white exec
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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by white exec »

Could be something more serious, of course, but has the clutch (cable) adjustment been checked - sufficient pedal movement to de-clutch adequately?

Also, check that gearbox is filled with 75W-80 gear oil, GL-4 . . . and not GL-5 or 75W-90 etc. The GL-4 makes for better operation of the synchromesh. Total Transmission 8 gear oil is Citroen's usual recommendation.

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by Flat Eric »

Yes they are is the answer. They are all MA boxes and mate to TU engines.

Of course the ratios will be all over the place as diesel gearboxes are longer than petrol ones.

The VTR 'box i have sat in my garage is not far off a diesel in terms of ratios.

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by JohnD »

Flat Eric wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 21:39
Yes they are is the answer. They are all MA boxes and mate to TU engines.
Of course the ratios will be all over the place as diesel gearboxes are longer than petrol ones.
The VTR 'box i have sat in my garage is not far off a diesel in terms of ratios.


Thanks for that! Sounds promising. I've been looking at the ratios of the different models and the ratios used in the 1360 engines seem to be the same as those in the diesels.

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by GiveMeABreak »

So here is the official Saxo Gearbox data - you can make your own minds up based on the facts....

Note the last section with the uprated boxes and the warning at the bottom about Gearbox interchangeability...
Saxo GB A.PNG
(1) input shaft.
(2) release bearing guide.
(3) clutch housing.
(4) gearbox casing.
(5) intermediate plate.
(6) Bearing retainer (bearing retaining plate).
(7) driving gear (5th gear).
(8) output shaft.
(9) synchronizer (5th gear).
(10) driven gear (5th gear).
(11) driven gear (4th gear).
(12) 3rd/4th synchronizer.
(13) driven gear (3rd gear).
(14) driven gear (2nd gear).
(15) 1st/2nd synchronizer and reverse driven gear.
(16) driven gear (1st gear).
( 17) differential crown wheel.
(18) planet wheels.
(19) sun wheels.
(20) speedometer drive gear.
(21) speedometer pinion.
(22) differential box.
Petrol Engines
VehicleEngineReference numbersValidity - StartValidity - Enddifferential - Diametre (mm)
1.0iCDZ (TU9M)20 CC 1702/96-68
1.1i - 5 HP (*)HDZ (TU1M)20 CC 1702/96-68
1.1i - 4 HP (*)HDZ (TU1M)20 CC 1702/96-68
1.0iCDZ (TU9M)20 CC 7802/96-68
1.1i airbagHDZ (TU1M)20 CC 7802/96-68
1.4iKFX (TU3JP)20 CC 0402/96-68
1.4i airbagKFX (TU3JP)20 CC 6102/96-68
1.6iNFZ (TU5JP)20 CC 0502/96-77
1.6i 16VNFX (TU5J4)20 CC 1207/96-77

Diesel Engines
VehicleEngineReference numbersValidity - StartValidity - Enddifferential - Diametre (mm)
1.5D - 4 HP (*)VJY (TUD5)20 CC 5707/96-68
1.5D - 4 HP (*)VJZ (TUD5)20 CC 5707/96-68
1.5D - 5 HP (*)VJY (TUD5)20 CC 6107/96-68
1.5D - 5 HP (*)VJZ (TUD5)20 CC 6107/96-68
Data
Reference Numbers12345Reverse gearcrown wheel and pinionSpeedometer drive gear
20 CC 0411x4020x3929x3740x3943x3312x3017x6419x17
20 CC 05 (1)12x4121x3829x3740x3943x3312x3017x6419x17
20 CC 12 (1)12x4120x3928x3837x3941x3512x3016x6319x17
20 CC 1312x4121x3829x3740x3943x3312x3017x6419x17
20 CC 1712x4121x3829x3740x3943x3312x3014x6019x17 (2)
20 CC 1712x4121x3829x3740x3943x3312x3014x6019x18 (3)
20 CC 57 (1)11x4020x3929x3740x3943x3312x3017x6119x17
20 CC 61 (1)11x4020x3929x3740x3943x3312x3017x6419x17
20 CC 78 (1)12x4121x3829x3740x3943x3312x3014x6019x17



These are the gearboxes listed for the Saxo that were uprated and from build date August 2000:

Engine - Research TypeEngine - Legislation TypeReference NumbersRPO number - Applicable StartingRPO number - Applicable Endingdifferential - Diametre (mm)
TU9M (1)CDZ20 CE 818421871268
TU1M (1)HDZ/HDY---68
TU1JP (1)HFX20 CF 038715-68
TU1MHDZ/HDY20 CE 928421871268
TU3JPKFW---68
--20 CF 118715-68
--20 CE 958421871268
TU3JP (2)KFW---68
--20 CF 128715-68
--20 CE 738421871268
TU3JP (3)KFW---68
TUD5 / BVJU/VJX/VJZ20 CF 028715-68
TUD5 / B (1)VJU/VJX/VJZ---68
TU5JP (2)-20 CD 608421871277
TU5JP (2)NFZ---77
TU5JP (2)NFT20 CN 058715-77
--20 CD 468421871277
TU5J4 (2)NFX---77
--20 CN 038715-77
Diesel variants are marked in Purple.

Key:
(1) Entreprise versions.
(2) VTS variant vehicle trim level.
(3) VTS Taiwan variant vehicle trim level.

TU9M (1), TU1M (1) and TU1JP (1) engines
Reference Numbers1st2nd3rd4th5thReverse GearCrown Wheel and PinionSpeedometer Drive Gear
20 CE 81 (*)11x4020x3929x3740x3943x3312x30x4314x6019x17
20 CF 03 (*)11x4020x3932x4140x3943x3312x30x4314x6019x17
TU1M and TU3JP engines
Reference Numbers1st2nd3rd4th5thReverse GearCrown Wheel and PinionSpeedometer Drive Gear
20 CE 92 (*)11x4020x3929x3740x3943x3312x30x4317x6419x17
20 CF 11 (*)11x4020x3932x4140x3943x3312x30x4317x6419x17
TU3JP (3) engine
Reference Numbers1st2nd3rd4th5thReverse GearCrown Wheel and PinionSpeedometer Drive Gear
20 CE 95 (*)11x4020x3928x3840x3943x3312x30x4317x6419x17
20 CF 12 (*)11x4020x3932x4140x3943x3312x30x4317x6419x17
TU3JP (3), TUD5 / B and TUD5 / B (1) engines
Reference Numbers1st2nd3rd4th5thReverse GearCrown Wheel and PinionSpeedometer Drive Gear
20 CE 73 (*)11x4020x3929x3740x3943x3312x30x4317x6419x17
20 CF 02 (*)11x4020x3932x4140x3943x3312x30x4317x6419x17
TU5JP (2) engine
Reference Numbers1st2nd3rd4th5thReverse GearCrown Wheel and PinionSpeedometer Drive Gear
20 CD 60 (**)12x4120x3928x3837x3941x3512x30x4317x6119x17
20 CN 05 (**)12x4120x3930x4137x3941x3512x30x4317x6119x17
TU5J4 (2) engine
Reference numbers1st2nd3rd4th5thReverse gearcrown wheel and pinionSpeedometer drive gear
20 CD 46 (**)12x4120x3928x3837x3941x3512x30x4316x6319x17
20 CN 03 (**)12x4120x3930x4137x3941x3512x30x4316x6319x17

(*) tyres : 165 x 70 R 13 or 165 x 65 R 14.
(**) tyre 185 x 55 R 14.

Special Features
This gearbox does not contain any adjustment.
This gearbox has a reverse brake (5th gear synchronizer).
This gearbox has a device that prohibits changing from 5th gear into reverse gear.
The length of the splines on the primary shaft, clutch end, is increased by 2,5 mm on gearboxes in the following sequences:
  • 20 CF xx
  • 20 CN xx
N.B.: Gearboxes with serial nos. 20 CE xx and 20 CD xx are not interchangeable with gearboxes with serial nos. 20 CF xx and 20 CN xx.

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by RichardW »

Nice one, Marc!!

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by Flat Eric »

JohnD wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 09:44
Flat Eric wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 21:39
Yes they are is the answer. They are all MA boxes and mate to TU engines.
Of course the ratios will be all over the place as diesel gearboxes are longer than petrol ones.
The VTR 'box i have sat in my garage is not far off a diesel in terms of ratios.


Thanks for that! Sounds promising. I've been looking at the ratios of the different models and the ratios used in the 1360 engines seem to be the same as those in the diesels.


No problem. This is a topic that's been done to death in Saxos, 106s and AX's (i have an AX VTS) on other forums.

From the info subsequently posted it looks like the >99 1.4i petrol is the closest to the diesel box if it's for your '98 1.5D (read from your profile).

If you end up getting one of the VT gearboxes it's good practice to get the driveshafts as well. The diff can be different (not easily swapped on an MA 'box unlike BE/ML) and pay attention to whether you have a flat or curved hub flange as there is a change.

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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by JohnD »

Question for Marc. Where do I find the reference number for my Saxo gearbox please. If it helps the VIN is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen Saxo gearboxes

Post by GiveMeABreak »

These are the only references under parts as per the diagram below, but look at the second picture to locate the identification labels / markings of the gearbox.

Click diagram to Zoom
Saxo GB B.PNG
Identification:
Saxo GB C.PNG
Saxo GB C.PNG (62.23 KiB) Viewed 1013 times
( A) identification label stuck on the clutch operating lever.
(B) location of engraving of serial and gearbox numbers (example : 20 CC 17).
There is also a gearbox repair kit: Part 229945 still available from Citroen for £376.91 (I know, silly money) containing all of the parts marked 'A':
Saxo Gearbox Repair Kit.PNG
There are also individual parts still available from the following Diagram for your Gearbox:
Saxo GB D.PNG