Citroen C3 2008 Fish-tailing on Braking - Need identification of drum OEM

[HarryMiller123]

Hi there,

greetings from Australia.

I have a Citroen C3 2008 diesel DV6TED4, manual, with rear drum brakes.

Upon getting my annual registration pink-slip check (MOT), it was revealed that under heavy braking at 50 kph (31 mph) the rear left of the vehicle fish-tailed sharply to the left.

I took it to a specialist brake mechanic who said the brake master cylinder needed replacing. Unfortunately there is no OEM replacement in the country, so he has washed his hands clean of it (common over here, especially with European cars).

I wanted to know of any other opinion as I'm not entirely convinced of his diagnosis.

I suspect it could be the left rear drum instead:

• I bought the car 10 years ago I could not get the rear drums off, even with attempting to back them off. Worn a deep groove?

• The left rear drum has had a bad bearing that I have kept alive with care. I could not replace that because there is none left in the country! Maybe some grease has entered the drum?

I am left in a predicament as to inspect the drums would mean possibly cutting them, thus destroying them in the process.

As parts are near impossible to obtain this would mean sourcing parts from Europe/UK most likely.

If I decide to replace the drums as a kit (including bearing) I need to know if the drums are Bosch or Lucas as a return of a wrong product internationally is out of the question.

Please find attached pictures of the drums.

If anyone could identify them (Bosch or Lucas) that would give me more confidence to send for the correct kit.

Thank you kindly.

[xantia_v6]

I think that it is unlikely that the master cylinder is causing rear wheel lockup. It would seem more reasonable for it to be the ABS block, or something downstream (although the ABS block is probably more difficult to source than a master cylinder).

Rear brake drums (Citroen PN 424746) seem to be available after-market: https://www.superspares.com.au/bcp-rear ... -citroen-c

[HarryMiller123]

Thank you @xantia_v6 for getting back to me.

I re-spoke to the mechanic and he was saying that in smaller cars the master cylinders are diagonal-biased rather than front-rear. So in my case the front right and rear left are operating, the others not -> thus the rear moves to the left....made sense.

As per the drums at superspares I don't think they come with the bearing press-fitted (the bearing is the Achilles heel)....but I have enquired and waiting on a response.

Thanks again!

[RichardW]

Wish our cars were that rust free - at 1 year old, let alone nearly 20!!

These look like Bosch brakes to me. Here is the the back of the 2 types from GSF Car parts, you can see that TRW/Lucas has the pipe offset to the side with the bleed screw slightly above the retaining bolt, and Bosch has the pipe offset to the bottom with the bolt in line with the bleed screw - which looks like the set up on your car.

The drum will come off; you just have to be 'firm' with it!! Of course that might wreck something in the process, which if parts supply is limited and you need the car might be an issue... Worst case you can drill off the end of the shoe retaining pins and then pull it all off together. If the bearing is stuck on the shaft then a slide hammer might be needed to free it. Should 'just' come apart like this:

[PaulC5]

Not watched the video but if you adjust the handbrake so its cable is completely slack you might be able to get the drums off. Then once off file off the wear/dust ridge so the drums can go back on easily. When refitting start with the auto adjuster at minimum to fit the shoes, then adjust it out with a finger to about where it was before removal/cleaning so that the drum lightly catches the shoes when turned. Do not peen over the hub nut until you are happy all is well as these should be replaced each time and are expensive.

The auto adjusters work when the ends are compressed so on the car with the drums on it is done with the handbrake off and just using the footbrake. The handbrake cable should be set so the shoe levers are against the shoe with the handbrake off after the auto adjuster is done and then when pulling up the handbrake the shoes should be just catching on one click. If you make the mistake of adjusting the handbrake on its cable so the shoe lever is not against the shoe then the auto adjuster will not work. I found this after our daughter's mechanic friend adjusted her 2010 C3 handbrake cable and for me to get it right needed the adjuster nut undoing 3 full turns.

[HarryMiller123]

Thanks so much for the replies!

@RichardW

Wish our cars were that rust free - at 1 year old, let alone nearly 20!!

..... LOL....yep, completely rust free. It's in very good nick, just getting a little tired.

These look like Bosch brakes to me.... you can see that TRW/Lucas has the pipe offset to the side with the bleed screw slightly above the retaining bolt, and Bosch has the pipe offset to the bottom with the bolt in line with the bleed screw

....yes, thank you for looking at the cylinders. Sometimes the sum of the parts is greater than the whole . I noticed the cylinders bolt is inline with the 'nipple' and the line connection to the south of the 'bulge'.

@PaulC5

Not watched the video but if you adjust the handbrake so its cable is completely slack you might be able to get the drums off. Then once off file off the wear/dust ridge so the drums can go back on easily. When refitting start with the auto adjuster at minimum to fit the shoes, then adjust it out with a finger to about where it was before removal/cleaning so that the drum lightly catches the shoes when turned. Do not peen over the hub nut until you are happy all is well as these should be replaced each time and are expensive.

The auto adjusters work when the ends are compressed so on the car with the drums on it is done with the handbrake off and just using the footbrake. The handbrake cable should be set so the shoe levers are against the shoe with the handbrake off after the auto adjuster is done and then when pulling up the handbrake the shoes should be just catching on one click. If you make the mistake of adjusting the handbrake on its cable so the shoe lever is not against the shoe then the auto adjuster will not work. I found this after our daughter's mechanic friend adjusted her 2010 C3 handbrake cable and for me to get it right needed the adjuster nut undoing 3 full turns.

Great, I will keep that in mind.

...dwarfed by some 70 year old birch trees.

[ozvtr]

Woah!!!!! Are you sure your engine is a DV6TED4? That's a 1.6L engine and you would have discs on the rear!
DV4TD 8 valve, DV4TED4 16 valve.
I'll assume the engine is a DV4.

Look on the top of the plastic brake fluid reservoir. The system is marked on there. TRW and LUCAS are the same. The TRW units have "TRW" embossed on the top of the cylinder above the "front" circuit outlet.

Are you using a puller to try and get the drum off? If there is a lip you would only damage the friction material on the brake shoes if you force it off.
I have removed a drum on my 2003 C3 (which is close to 200K) to replace the wheel bearing. While there was a lip, it was not that big. I do not expect to replace it for the rest of the cars life. I have owned a lot of cars and have never had to replace the drums. The front discs...heaps! But not the drums.

I am concerned that the ABS is not working. Yes, I do believe there is an underling mechanical problem, but, I think the ABS should have complained that it could not control the errant wheel.
Does the ABS light come on briefly when you turn the ignition on? Did the technician mention the ABS light coming on? If you brake quickly, the hazards will come on. If you brake VERY quickly the brake force assist will kick in and the brake peddle will go to the floor!! Very disconcerting (roo incident, you know what I mean).

Have you attempted to replicate the fault? Driving the car I mean.

The wheel bearing part number is 3748.77 or E268579. There are heaps of hits on the usual suspects (on line).
There is no difference between the drums for a BOSCH or TRW/LUCAS system. Your best bet is to try to find a DBA1939. The usual suspects (bricks and mortar stores) should be able to get them if required.

The master cylinder part number for BOSCH is 4601.R0. BOSCH do not do a master cylinder for the ESP system. IMHO I don't think any ESP fitted C2s or C3s came into Australia.
TRW/LUCAS did do ESP and non ESP versions of the master cylinder. But the non ESP version was part number 4601.L8.
TRW/LUCAS and BOSCH have different brake booster fittings on the back of the master cylinder and are not interchangeable.

I would tend to suspect the slave cylinder rather than the master cylinder. Moisture tends to build up and rust the piston and bore. However, the master cylinder is cast Aluminium and it's soft. I had a late model Ford Meteor with an Aluminium Girlock master cylinder that wore out. Seal kit did not fix it. But I had an early model MAZDA 323 (basically the same as the Meteor) with a cast iron Hitachi master cylinder. Rubbers wore out, but not the bore. Install seal kit...good as new. The aforementioned Girlock incident caused the loss of one of the brake circuits, but the car felt the same? Mind you I did not do any hard braking.

[HarryMiller123]

Thank you @ozvtr.

Woah!!!!! Are you sure your engine is a DV6TED4? That's a 1.6L engine and you would have discs on the rear!

Yes, it is a DV6TED4 16V.

Discs on rear....yep...if you are right you just confirmed my thoughts the last 10 years! . I mentioned this to the brake specialist and he said it makes sense only on performance vehicles (an axle swap) but that's not really true. It doesn't take a lot of effort to swap parts, especially if you're familiar with a vehicle. I bought it at 68,000 km (42K Miles). The drive train was more like 150,000 km. I've always suspected the rear drums were from another vehicle where someone had been doing handbrake practice... (thus me not being able to remove them). So going forward I don't really know the true engine/drive-train mileage. All I can do and have done is change the timing belt and regular oil changes.

I think the ABS should have complained that it could not control the errant wheel.

Good point. Might be time to pull out the OBD2 scanner....

The wheel bearing part number is 3748.77 or E268579.

Thank so much!