It's another 1.6 HDI injector thread!

[shtu]

Because of course it is.

I've been grappling with a poor-running Berlingo for a little while now, and I've got most of the way to the problem, but have a few questions I'm hoping you can help with.

Symptoms
Rough idle, especially from cold.
More white smoke than I would expect.
Strong diesel smell at idle.
Classic "injector rattle" under load from idle to about 1500-2000rpm
Poor driveability on light throttle, especially from cold.

Diagnostics
P0263 will appear, and returns if cleared. That's a fault code for injector 1, flywheel end. (typo in fault code corrected)
(there are other codes that appear on occasion, which suggest the other 3 injectors run out of capacity to mask the P2063 fault, I can't recall those codees, sorry)

Detail
It's a 2011 Berlingo with the DV6C engine, 9HL code.
VIN = VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
It's been serviced recently, so I know the mechanical timing is right (just replaced cambelt)

Now, here's where the fun starts

All 4 injectors appear original, there's no sign of previous tinkering, and all 4 are part number 9674973080.
The injector codes all match the ECU programming.
The injectors measure roughly the same restistance, 200.6 (the dud), 199.7, 198.9, 199.5 KOhms.

While I was in Diagbox, getting familiar with the recoding process for injectors, I received this puzzling message,

Before replacing a diesel injector, if the part number of the faulty diesel injector is not 9802448680, then carry out an engine management ECU download.

As far as I can tell from trawling the supplier's catalogues, 9674973080 and 9802448680 are exactly the same part, and are interchangeable numbers, eg, https://commonraildiesels.com/citroen-b ... 1220-p.asp which makes me wonder what on earth Diagbox is waffling about in it's iFrench accent. If anyone has any idea what it's on about - I really can't see the need for an ECU update - do let me know.

My original plan was to cheap-out and source a single used injector (of either part number), code it in, reset the learning for all 4, and see how it goes. Is this wise, or is this engine finicky enough that it won't like this?

If I do go fo 4x refurb injectors, there's a german company on eBay that can supply for c.£250 a set. (Diesel-fixneuss), has anyone used this company?

Thanks in advance.

[GiveMeABreak]

Ok, so let's start with the fault code, you have it back to front, and should be P0263, as there's no P2063 for this vehicle which relates to the DeNox system

Fault Code:	P0263
Description of Fault:	No. 1 cylinder: Injector resetting outside tolerance. Difference of more than 0,8 mg/stroke between the pilot injection and the flow reference value.
Conditions for Fault to clear:	Engine hot (Coolant temperature above 70°C) External air temperature greater than 0°C Gear higher than 3rd Vehicle speed higher than 40 km/h Perform long decelerations without braking (Between 2500 and 1500 rpm)
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:	Reversible deactivation of the vehicle speed limiter Reversible deactivation of the vehicle cruise control Deactivation of the request for regeneration of the particle filter from the diagnostic tool
Symptoms:	Jerking/stalling Engine acceleration at wrong time Noise Slightly higher fuel consumption Starting problem Smoke from the exhaust Lack of power
Suspect Areas:	Fuel injector 1 Injector classification Poor quality of the fuel or type of fuel Fuel return Inlet valve - Exhaust valve - Spring - Seal Piston - Piston rings - Shaft - Cooling system Conrods

As for the Injector:

(7)
New OEM Complete HDi Injector (Continental), part: 9802448680, £615.30
Standard Exchange HDi Injector (Continental). part: 1608518380, £468.60

The original Citroen Injector internal part reference was 1980ER, but that has been replaced with the above part number: 9802448680, which is the same part referred to in the message you are getting.

So if you have different injectors, these may be the international part numbers for the PSA part numbers (1980ER) and if that is the case, it is asking you to make sure the engine management software has been updated which will no doubt be to ensure compatibility.

There will be differences in the injectors between part numbers - and this could be down to fuel metering etc. - miniscule differences that make a big difference. Part numbers are unique and if they are the same they would use the same part number, so there is a difference.

[shtu]

Thanks Marc, yes, sorry about the typo.

Puzzle 1
The part numbers aren't unique.
Every supplier I can find lists a single part under a couple of dozen references, including assorted Ford, PSA, Volvo codes, another example, https://wtdiesel.com/products/9674973080 and everyone lists both 9674973080 and 9802448680 as references for the primary part (which seems to be an A2C... code)

Puzzle 2
Far as I can tell, the engine has had 9674973080 from new, with no problems beyond the current failure.
Why would Diagbox be waffling about the other part number? It's ALREADY running the other part number happily. I can only guess that it was the valid Citroen number at the time that version was released.

[GiveMeABreak]

I can't comment on after-market suppliers or their sources, but there are internal part numbers the constructor uses and then there are manufacturer part numbers. PSA can use one of the other, depending on the component and the maker.

All I can tell you is these collaborative engines are used with a variety of vehicle constructors and can be modified to their own needs.

The part numbers I provided are the correct official latest part numbers direct from Citroen - we only use the same official databases that are used by their dealers.

As for the software, Diagbox is regularly updated and only intended for dealerships to use. Therefore updates and information comes through the interface via the portal to advise technicians of specific issues related to the vehicle being diagnosed. You likely have a 'patched' out of date version. PSA collect data from their dealerships on all sorts of issues and release software updates to fix or correct issues they find. In this case it is likely to be a previously detected issue with this engine and these injectors that if they have the older original part (1980ER) OR a standard exchange injector, that the ECU needs updating to adjust for these.

[shtu]

I've decided to gamble (a little) and see if this is fixable for £minimal. Sourced a single used injector from eBay. A clean-looking set with a matching part number came up tis morning, so grabbed one of those, and I've ordered the bolts, seals, guides, etc.

I'll stick in one, code it, and see how things are then. If that's no better, next likely step would be to get all 4(5?) tested and see what's going on.


This looks like the right torque settings, viewtopic.php?t=72072

[GiveMeABreak]

Yes, those are the correct torque settings for your Berlingo with DV6C engine. Fingers crossed on the injectors.

[Rp0thejester]

I think this has gone to far, sometimes people like myself over think things, let's go back to basics on this

[Rp0thejester]

A can of EGR Cleaner can work wonders but white smoke can mean over fuelling. White smoke seems to be over fuelling, in that case I doubt it's an injector problem. There's another issue there, go back to basics. have you checked your air pipes?

[shtu]

Thanks Ryan.

All the intake etc is fine, I've had it all apart recently, all the parts are clear, new air filter when serviced, etc. No change.

I'm happy to chuck £50 of parts at it and see, the code seems to be common for injector failures seen elsewhere. Clear the code, drive it a while, rescan, same code returns. The "smoke" is at cold, and it's debateable if it's even smoke, but it does have a diesel-y smell. Main issues are the misfire on idle, a lack of power immediately above idle, and the low-rpm injector rattle. If I was to guess, I'd suggest that the injector nozzle is partially blocked, messing up the combustion at low rpm, and what I'm smelling is the unburnt fuel from the misfre. (I did ponder buying an ultrasonic cleaner, but the cost of that is more than just buying an injector)

Above 1700ish rpm, it drives absolutely fine. Try and chug along under 1500rpm, and it doesn't like that.

The bits are ordered now, so I'll report back either way. If there's no change at all, It'll probably be shipped off to a diesel specialist for compression and injector tests. Worst comes to worst, there's an engine on eBay for £550.

[shtu]

Time for an update.

I picked up a used injector from eBay (with the same part number as the original), for the princely sum of £55, delivered from Ireland.

Also bought a kit of fitting parts - the bolts, guide sleeves, return pipe o-rings, and copper washers. I'll be honest, I was not overly impressed by the quality of these. The plastic guide was too large for the injector, the copper washers' inside dianeter a touch too small, but the o-ring and bolt appeared OK. If I was to do the job again I'd probably seek out genuine bits, but I was able to reuse the existing guide bush, and a small file sorted the copper washer.

The injector seat was fine, a quick scrub and a blow from an airline got rid of the loose soot that was left in the hole after removing the old injector.

The "new" injector tested at 200Kohms across the terminals.

Once the "new" injector was in, torqued down, airbox back on etc., coded the ecu to the new injector code, and reset the adaptation of injector 1 only. And then the moment of truth, fire it up and see what happens.

It ran like a dog.

Still missing on one at idle, and still rattly, but perhaps not as bad as before. Well, it's not going to fix itself so time to take it out, get it warm, and see if it would improve with some running and re-learning.

And, it did. I haven't yet taken it out for a by-the-book configuration run, or checked the re-learning state, but got it warm and did a few accelerate-and-coast-down runs, combined with the occasional thrashing through the gears. Haven't yet tried another cold start (which will be the real test), but for now it will pull from idle in third at full throttle without any rattling, missing or jumping, and can be manouevered at parking speeds without the extra revs it needed before.

Best of all, my cheapskate fix (if it really is fixed) leaves enough in the kitty to swap the RD4 radio to an RD45.

It's a Christmas miracle.


Follow-up edit - took it out today (Tuesday) after being parked since Saturday, and about 2-3 c today, so a nice cold start test. Worked a treat. I'll sling some "injector cleaner" through it for a while - one of the advantages of having heating oil at home.

[shtu]

Replying to my own thread again, because I like to get a conclusion to things.

In this thread, viewtopic.php?t=81096 I'd realised that things still weren't 100% right, still a little smoke, a little diesel smell, and not running quite right at idle or low rpm. Carried out a compression test, which looked OK to me with no major variation between cylinders that would point to a mechanical problem like a burned valve.

Hooked up Diagbox and spent an hour poking around, logging drive data, etc. The main issues that could be spotted were,

A high variation between injectors at idle,

Cylinder 1 injector flow correction factor - 0.83
Cylinder 2 injector flow correction factor - 1.70
Cylinder 3 injector flow correction factor - 0.80
Cylinder 4 injector flow correction factor - 0.66

and a high variation in "calculated injected flow" - every few seconds the number would jump upwards by 2-300%, and the engine would miss. All the other air and fuel values looked sensible (temperatures, pressures, etc).

My guess from this was that injector 2 was partially blocked or sticking, and the ecu was compensating by increasing the open time of cylinder 2, and reducing on 4. Every so often the injector would unstick\unblock, and inject far too much fuel in thanks to the increased duration. That cylinder would now have far too rich a mixture on that cycle, misfire, and dump the diesel into the exhaust.

I took another cheapskate gamble and put a used injector into cylinder 2, coded it and took it for a quick run. Even though the full adaptation cycle isn't complete yet, the misfire has gone and the diagnostics show a much more consistent set of flow correction values, plus the "calculated injected flow" value at idle has stabilised, no longer jumping from 4-5 to 8-10+ every few seconds.

Cylinder 1 injector flow correction factor - 0.98
Cylinder 2 injector flow correction factor - 1.02
Cylinder 3 injector flow correction factor - 1.05
Cylinder 4 injector flow correction factor - 0.94

Hopefully that's the end of that.