C5 X7 refrigerant and oil quantities

[spiriad]

Hi All!

Owner of a C5 X7 2.2hdi 204hp 2014 here.

Today I've just refilled my AC system at a dedicated aircon shop:

with the following results:

and I was intrigued by the fact that the oil quantity is just 26 ml - even though on my AC compressor it states clearly 135 cc:

I've shown them the picture, but they refused to fill that quantity of oil, saying that the recommendation of the producer of the AC refilling machine is to use 25 ml of oil at each 500g of refrigerant.

I have read other topics viewtopic.php?t=62817 and viewtopic.php?p=578297 but nobody mentions the oil quantity.

So my question to you guys is: should I go back (or to other shop) and refill with the correct oil quantity? What do you suggest?

[xantia_v6]

When the refrigerant is removed (or leaks), most of the oil remains in the compressor, and can only be removed if the compressor is flushed. So when refilling the system it is normal to only add a little oil to compensate for any lost with the refrigerant.

[spiriad]

So should I consider that the procedure was done properly then?

[xantia_v6]

Yes, it seems correct.

[wheeler]

On any A/C machine i have used in the past any oil that comes out with the refrigerant is separated into a little bottle on the side or back of the machine. You empty it before you recover or some of them have a marker on them so you can see how much oil comes out. You just refill the amount that came out. You dont normally see more than a couple of teaspoons come out.

[spiriad]

Also, on a closer look, I'm starting to be confused about the refrigerant amount.

In this post viewtopic.php?p=611261#p611261 Marc said

C5 X7 Euro 5 Engines (all Types): 525 grammes

However I've checked 3 sources:

• https://www.nrf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2 ... 0-PC-1.pdf

  

• https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/eu/en ... uantities/

  

• https://www.hella.com/techworld/uk/Tech ... ties-2114/

  

And it's not clear what quantity is needed for 2014 2.2hdi: 525g or 625g?

[Hell Razor5543]

The problem is it depends on what make of A/C equipment is fitted to your car. Some years ago I went to a friend to get the A/C topped up on my Xantia, and the label had come off the compressor. There were three possible options (according to his list), each with differing refrigerant quantities. If you take a look at your car you might be able to find out which A/C compressor is fitted, and from that you could work out the quantity it needs.

[PaulC5]

In the engine compartment or under the bonnet there is often a sticker saying which refrigerant is used and possibly the amount.

[GiveMeABreak]

Refrigerant for the C5 X7

• Euro4 (except DW10BTED4) 625 grammes
• Euro5 (all types) 525 grammes
• Euro4 (DW10BTED4) 525 grammes

[nocturnal]

I've read a few threads on UKHOTDEALS with arguments saying if the AC needs regassed there is a leak in the system even if it hasn't been done in 10 years and therefore the leak needs fixed before regassing.

What are your thoughts or experiences on this as whilst my AC works it could probably be better on a C5 X7 2012 and maybe it has never been regassed since manufacture but I don't know as I only bought it in 2022.

[xantia_v6]

If the cooling performance of the A/C has degraded very slowly, just a bit worse each year,and it is still cooling to some extent, then it is safe to assume that there is no leak that needs repair.
If after refilling it looses performance in a year or less, then it should be checked for leaks.

[ozvtr]

I've read a few threads on UKHOTDEALS with arguments saying if the AC needs regassed there is a leak in the system even if it hasn't been done in 10 years and therefore the leak needs fixed before regassing.

What are your thoughts or experiences on this as whilst my AC works it could probably be better on a C5 X7 2012 and maybe it has never been regassed since manufacture but I don't know as I only bought it in 2022.

This is a question for economics and the law.

With all the craziness about climate change, there are VERY harsh penalties for KNOWINGLY allowing greenhouse gasses to escape into the atmosphere! HOWEVER governments allow the use of reduced barrier hoses to be used in refrigeration systems (I.E. car air conditioning) KNOWING that reduced barrier hoses allow synthetic gasses like R134a to permeate the walls of the hose and escape into the atmosphere!? Why use them then? Cost!!! So it's "apparently" "OK" to use reduced barrier hoses and top up the refrigerant "every so often"...and it's legal?
The shaft seals of most compressors are either not good in the first place or wear out and leak over time (some are good and will last the lifespan of the car). So "small" leaks from the seal are accepted too. It's expensive to replace a compressor and no one repairs them these days, well practically no one (I have). Leaks from schrader valves and hard line couplings are easy to fix and there is no excuse for not fixing them, no matter how big or small the leak. However, small leaks can be VERY testing to find and soak up an inordinate amount of time just to find them....which means MONEY! If a leak is so small that it cant be found, how can the law prove that there is a leak at all to prosecute someone? If a technician cant find a leak but refrigerant is escaping...what does that mean?
So then what constitutes a "small leak" that MUST be repaired??
Is it economical for an owner to repair an A/C system for hundreds of Quatloos (substitute your currency here) when a) it only needs to be "topped up" every "few" years for a minimal cost and b) people don't own cars for great lengths of time these days? I would not be surprised if people would rather sell their car than get the A/C system repaired.
Across the industry it's accepted that an A/C system WILL leak "small" amounts over it's life span. Theoretically it shouldn't leak at all, but, it's accepted that it will.
So at what point do practicality, economics and the law meet? How big (or small) does the leak need to be before something should be done about it?
It's not practical for the law to expect a car owner to understand the workings of the air conditioning system and the fact that if it stops working...they may have broken the law. Hence the term "knowingly" above. HOWEVER for a HVAC technician...it's a completely different story!

When you take your leaking A/C system to a technician, they need to make a value judgement. The law, your wallet and their profit!

[Wookey]

there are VERY harsh penalties for KNOWINGLY allowing greenhouse gasses to escape into the atmosphere!

You sure about that? On the contrary it is generally considered totally normal and strongly encouraged with adverts for flights, holidays, and (ICE) cars extremely widespread, licences to dig up new fossil sources still being handed out even in countries which claim to be leading the world in decarbonisation (the UK). Gas heating is still totally normal and there is a mini-industry in putting people off switching to heat without massive emissions. And so on. By and large putting greenhouses gases up is enroucaged more than it is discouraged. And actual penalties (even taxes, never mind liability) are extremely thin on the ground.

There are F-gas regulations in various countries which try to restrict sale of high GWP gases to professionals, but I have never heard of anyone actually being prosecuted for refrigerant release. The old gases really are shockingly bad at 5000-15000 times their mass in CO2 equivalent, so letting 0.5Kg of R-12 out is equivalent to 5 tonnes of CO2 (or driving 16000 miles) . The ones in a lot of current cars (up to 2017) are still pretty bad (R134a is 1430 GWP). The new stuff R1234yf is fine at a GWP of 4. Hydrocarbon replacements for R134a (RR436A and B) are also fine at GWP=3. DIYers messing with those is not a problem, except insofar as you still don't just want to let them into the atmosphere because you could get an explosive mixture. Its like methane: some care required. I'm not actually sure what the law says about this in various countries. In general you are not allowed to do anything with F-gases without a cert. I know you can (in the UK) put propane in a heat pump yourself but you can't have more than about 500g in if it's indoors. So probably small amounts of HCs you can do what you like with.