C8 2.2HDi really hates hills - turbo or DPF issue perhaps?

[Rp0thejester]

I can't imagine it's the dpf causing the problem unless there's a sensor after the dpf which is telling the ECU that everything is fine and carry on. It must be an issue before the dpf just finding out what it is, is gunna be tricky, hope it's not the EGR valve, what a terrible place to put it!!

[tearing hair out]

So I was looking at this part and saying to myself "I might just change the DPF for good measure".
https://www.cats2u.co.uk/citroen/1041-c ... results=11

I'm trying to work out the difference between that and the ones here..., which I'm clearly NOT buying speculatively:
viewtopic.php?p=757029#p757029

[GiveMeABreak]

There's no operating parameters for the system that I have, but component / flow chart:

" a" Yellow colour identification on the rubber pipe supplying the inlet air heater meter.

Flow Chart

(1) vacuum pump.
(2) Brake servo (ISOVAC).
(3) Butterfly housing control proportional electrovalve.
(4) Butterfly housing meter.
(5) Inlet air heater control proportional electrovalve.
(6) Inlet air metering device-heater.
(7) Vacuum reservoir.
(8) Turbocharger capsule valve proportional electrovalve.
(9) Turbocharger capsule valve.
(10) "Swirl" control electrovalve.
(11) "Swirl" diaphragm.
(12) EGR valve vacuum proportional electrovalve.
(13) EGR valve.
(14) Vacuum pipe linking the "Swirl" electrovalve to the "Swirl" diaphragm.

Connections of the unions on the electrovalves ( 3), (5), (8) and (10) :
"b" Control proportional electrovalve
"c" Colour reference on the electrovalve
"e" Electrovalve outlet pipe with colour reference (at "d")
"f" Electrovalve inlet pipe

Colour References

Reference	Designation	Electrical connector	"c" & "d"	"f"
(3)	Butterfly housing control proportional electrovalve	Black	White	Without
(5)	Inlet air heater control proportional electrovalve	Blue	-	-
(8)	Turbocharger capsule valve proportional electrovalve	Grey	-	-
(10)	"Swirl" control proportional electrovalve	Blue	-	-

N.B.: The pipe ( e) should be connected facing the colour reference "c" on the electrovalve "b".

Connection of the unions on the electrovalve ( 10):
"f" Electrovalve inlet pipe
"g" Colour reference on the "Swirl" electrovalve
(14) Vacuum pipe linking the "Swirl" electrovalve (10) to the "Swirl" diaphragm (11)


Colour Reference

Reference	Designation	Electrical connector	"g"	(14)	"f"
(10)	"Swirl" control electrovalve	Black	White	Without	Without

N.B.: The pipe ( 14) should be connected facing the colour reference "g" on the electrovalve (10).

[tearing hair out]

Thank you very much, Marc.

[Rp0thejester]

Well, I've got a bolt in the vacuum pipe, so I'm definitely going to replace the swirly thingy majic diaphragm for 20 quid, the dpf is a last resort for me

[aspire_helen]

Battling with the same problems on my 2001 C5 DW12TED4 / 2.2HDi. Pretty clear to me your the DPF is over-loaded, and regenerations have failed. What data does Lexia give you re the particulate filter and re-generations?

My C5 has been happily regenerating the DPF for years despite the additive system being u/s and not automatically injecting any Eolys (DPX42) into the diesel tank. So, Ive been adding it manually at 37.5ml (containing 1.9g Cerine) per 60ltrs (correct for DPX42, dont now about later additives eg Eolys 176).

On a another thread I explained how I fitted an LED to the drivers door mirror heater element to indicate when regeneration is being attempted. It takes about 10miles to complete a regeneration on a run, during which time the LED lights and extinguishes many times. Whenever I see the LED light up I take it onto the A1 dual carriageway and help it along. Problem came when my DPF was beyond regeneration (ie 3 unsuccessful attempts by the Ignition ECU in a row) after 117,000miles, so I put on a new one, but made the mistake of telling the Ignition ECU I had done so (without touching the additive info). Now the Ignition ECU has been prompted to realise the Additive ECU is faulty - doh! At the moment, I am unsure whether the Ignition ECU will continue to attempt regenerations (as before) - I hope it will (and my LED will tell me if/when it does) . But, I suspect now it will not. So, I am expecting to go into Limp-home mode when the DPF gets over-loaded (or is it a hard-wired mileage limit??). I have a 2nd hand Additive ECU on order and will fit that if I need to, and see if Lexia will permit me.

Re P0380 (glow plugs/control) I notice that one pre-requisite (of many) for Lexia to initiate a Stationary DPF Regeneration is that all permanent codes in the Ignition ECU must be cleared. Does this include glow plugs? I suspect glow plugs are powered during DPF regeneration to increase the load on the engine via the alternator, for the same reason that all demisting elements (screen, mirrors) are also turned on (the driver is not supposed to know!). One issue I have is that Lexia does not appear to tell us WHEN the fault was recorded (eg mileage). So, I have no idea how long I have had P0380, or any other fault, temporary or permanent.

Re cleaning the DPF. A decent clean can be achieved by removing it and hosing it through. I used a pressure washer to provide an increase flow rate - but was cautious not to direct the full jet onto the ceramic face. There was no soot, just lots and lots and lots of pale coloured ash and cloudy residue. But it took over an hour, played the water over the ceramic face in both forward and reverse flow directions, before the water finally ran clear. I do not have compressed air so I let the filter air dry in the sun. After 10 days of hot weather, a kilo of water had evaporated (DPF lost weight 8.2kg to 7.2kg). I am not sure it is necessary to thoroughly dry the filter as a lot of what goes through normally is water vapour, but I have had the luxury of time on my side.

[MattBLancs]

My understanding is glow plugs are switched on during regen to more directly assist the "horizontal chimney fire" = i.e. heat into the engine and from there, in the exhaust gases, to the DPF itself.

I shoved the pressure washed DPF into the home fan oven, 1.6 HDI's filter is fairly short, think the 2.0 and 2.2 units are always under the car and quite long - may be too long for that approach. So I'd suggest getting it on the BBQ or a small bonfire. So long as you don't aim for a huge towering inferno and had the DPF above it right from the start, then would be fairly gentle ramp up and down in temperature and even heating of the whole thing. It's the uneven heating that would worry me about, say using a blow lamp or electric heat gun to dry it out.

Good work on the sun dried method!

[tearing hair out]

Pretty clear to me your the DPF is over-loaded, and regenerations have failed. What data does Lexia give you re the particulate filter and re-generations?

Thank you for all that detail!

Every 450km, 180g. There's a video with a run up a hill watching the PDF parameters in an earlier post, though I'm not sure what, if anything, it tells us. Whether the regen is actually doing anything or the pump is actually injecting Eolys... that I don't know.

The ECU seems to think the fuel cap sensor is missing, but Marc checked and mine isn't supposed to have a cap sensor, so I'm not sure why the ECU thinks it does - perhaps someone replaced the tank / ECU with slightly incorrect version.

And it wouldn't have occurred to me that the glow plugs matter for regeneration. I really hope I don't have to replace those - they're not very accessible, I think. Not that anything is accessible on a C8!

[Rp0thejester]

Well if it's starting okay in the cold I wouldn't think there's an issue with your glow plugs

[aspire_helen]

Re glow plugs. They are not just used for cold starting, and if their failure (or their controller) prohibits DPF regeneration, then they are a serious problem. I believe they are one of the electrical systems which Lexia refers (under Particle Filter Information) to "Activation of Electrical Consumers". They draw a large current and hence are likely to be the most effective way of loading the alternator/engine to assist regeneration. And, as all the +ve glow plug terminals are connected, just one plug short circuiting will inhibit them all.
On a positive note, it is apparent P0380 is not communicated to the driver, only through diagnostics, so probably P0380 does NOT inhibit normal regeneration. But if Lexia told me when P0380 arose, I would know!
But according to Lexia such permanent faults recorded by the Ignition ECU will prevent Lexia-demanded regeneration, stationary at least. Does anyone know whether permanent faults recorded in the Ignition ECU diagnostics will prevent the Ignition ECU conducting a moving Lexia-demanded regeneration? Why is this process so b****y complicated and unreliable? It is rapidly becoming an end-of-life issue for a perfectly driveable car.
I use my car little these days, and then often on longer, faster runs which extend the mileage before saturating the DPF. Hence, I would be quite content to manually force a regeneration when the measured pressure drop requires it, stationary or moving. And, I am reminded that the DPF I have recently removed had been successfully regenerated for 117,000miles before becoming so blocked by ash that regeneration was not possible.

[aspire_helen]

Tearing hair out
Your data suggests your DPF may not be overloaded. Below is my data for comparison after I received the warning "clean diesel filter asap", which will have resulted from 3 consecutive failed regenerations. I have also noted your DPF pressure difference is 58mb. I do not know the value which triggers a regeneration (Does someone know) but 58mb seems pretty low to me. Mine was around 300mb.
My "distance since last regeneration" was 700km, yours is 368km. "last" generation would normally mean last "completed and successful" regeneration.
My "average distance of last 5 generations" was 200km, yours 448km. 400km is the official expectation, but depends upon driving conditions. 200km for my driving was very low and was a clear indication the DPF was becoming increasingly difficult to regenerate (due to long-term build up of ash). Indeed, I was aware from my DIY "LED regeneration indicator" (no patents pending!), that regeneration was being attempted a lot more frequently. What I did not appreciate was that the previous 2 attempts had been unsuccessful - the car does not tell you until it fails 3 in a row.

Regarding changing glow plugs. At your stage, I would recommend leaving the plugs alone at the moment; they are not the direct cause of your low power. But to investigate, check the glow plug controller first (to find it follow the terminal wires) - there are some good Youtube videos including one for a DW12TED4. I am reluctant to attempt to replace the plugs on mine , as one video shows what happens when they dont come out easily!!

[aspire_helen]

Re DPF differential pressure. The pressure sensor returns 0.5 to 5V. 0.5V equates to 0bar (engine off). 4.1V equates to 0.9bar (filter clogged). Info for 2.2HDi DW12TED4 with Bosch EDC15C2 ignition ECU.

[aspire_helen]

Mattblancs re glow plugs and DPF regeneration. Found the info.
The Ignition ECU will demand the BSI turns on specific electrical consumers (called an "alternator saturation request") to assist regeneration in the following order:
1. Rear screen demister (and mirror demisters where fitted).
2. Radiator fan at low speed.
3. Radiator fan at mid speed.
4. Glow plugs.
In other words, glow plugs are only powered if needed (perhaps to complete a more difficult regeneration eg town driving?). From my LED fitted to the door mirror de-mister I can testify that #1 above is used for every regeneration. I doubt I would hear the radiator fan on low/mid whilst driving.

[tearing hair out]

Bad news for me, unfortunately, I think. The garage has discovered that smoke pumped into the inlet, with the engine off, comes out of the dip stick. I guess the piston rings don't seal especially well at low pressure, but I'd not expect a particularly quick leak that way.

It sounds like a reconditioned engine - which is almost certainly too expensive. Anyone able to offer me any hope that we're missing something?

EDIT: There is a doubt in my mind - if you pump smoke into the inlet, it's got to come out somewhere... And if the only path is past the one (probably) open inlet valve into an otherwise-sealed cylinder - that's pretty much got to be past the piston rings. Presumably the piston rings naturally seal better when the cylinder is in motion.

[darbuck]

You have a fault P1435 that sounds like a bad fuel cap. I had a hyundai used to go into limp mode because the cap wasn't on properly. Try changing the fuel cap