C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

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MattBLancs
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C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by MattBLancs »

Morning all,

Quick description of the lead up to this point:
- Clutch pedal dropped to the floor whilst driving.
- Clutch master cylinder seemed to be at fault. Won't consistently pump a squirt of fluid out at the gearbox end (hard pipe disconnected at slave cylinder end) even with pressure bleeding kit still connected.
- car, recently bought is due timing belt as no history of it being done, car is 141 thousand miles and 2009, so 13 years on that belt! :shock:
- I've changed the belt, tensioners and water pump. Flywheel locked with ring gear teeth tool, cam locked with 8mm dia rod. All seems fine. Delphi branded kit.

- belt change completed: start the car: runs perfectly. All good. No test drive as awaiting parts for clutch.

- clutch master cylinder arrived = wrong pipe connection! Argh, returned. New one ordered. With outlet click fit connection at 90° to axis of cylinder (the one that arrived connection parallel)

- tow bar kit mechanically fitted (came with universal wiring kit, going to buy a dedicated loom so nothing electrical touched. Other than parking sensor multiplug to allow rear bumper off for tow bar fitting.

- second master cylinder arrived, fitted. Discovered I had lost seal 215615 at slave cylinder end so begrudgingly pay £7.20 for tiny little seal!

- car back on its wheels again.

Won't run. Turns over fine, fires for tiny fraction of a second then immediately dies. Process repeatable endlessly start-stop, start-stop, start-stop.
Pumped manual primer. Recharged battery which was getting flat. Cleaned a few earth/positive connections (gearbox, alternator main positive) and battery terminals and ring terminals attached there. No change (other than cranks faster)

No errors on the dash, will plug in my eBay generic Bluetooth fault reader and see it Torque app finds anything.

Locks / unlocks fine, so hopefully battery disconnect done ok (unlock car, left for about 20 minutes, battery disconnected = think that's correct method?)

Any suggestions as to what to check?

I'd assume I'd messed up sometime on the timing belt job if not for it running perfectly after that part of the job list was completed! Can't think what I've done to upset it!

Nothing electrical touched for clutch master cylinder job.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Matt
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by GiveMeABreak »

When / if you get a code, pop it up here Matt, but be aware that generic engine code readers often can't read the constructor-specific codes or anything outside of the generic codes. You'd need a proper diagnostic tool like Diagbox to read everything.

It may be a tooth out when the belt was fitted - you may end up with a crank sensor fault code, but lets see.
MattBLancs
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by MattBLancs »

Hi Marc,

Thanks for the swift response. Will try for a code this evening.

Yes, I think I'll be investing in diagbox and an old laptop soon!

Pretty sure I've got the timing right. Floating crank pulley on this engine (which put the wind up me! First time I've dealt with one of those!)

As above it did run well post belt change just can't fathom what I've touched since to offend it! :-D

Matt
MattBLancs
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by MattBLancs »

Just one code: P1351 is logged by Torque Lite. Glowplug related.
Cleared and didn't return. Graph suggests a peak of 600-700 rpm reached on each start-stop attempt.
Coolant temperature, intake temperature look sensible (for cold engine)

Matt
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes, and that code is pretty common, it will just come back until you replace the glow plugs.
MattBLancs
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by MattBLancs »

Ok, I will decouple the feed wire and confirm which have given up when I get chance.

I'm not rushing into Glow plug replacement, this is why I ended up taking the engine out and head off my wife's 206 HDi:
Glow plug (partial) removal
Glow plug (partial) removal


Don't fancy that job on the C5 at the moment!

Matt
Peter.N.
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by Peter.N. »

I had a similar problem on one of mine, sometimes it would start and stop another time it would start and drive a couple of hundred yards and then stop, you could get it to start eventually by pumping the primer bulb. I finally found that the the quick release connector on the input to the HP diesel pump was leaking air in. I eventually fitted a length of 10mm fuel pipe over the stub that fits in to the connector and joined it to the old pipe and it works fine now, it's a pig to get at though, right up against the bulkhead.

It worked fine for a few days initially but my son borrowed it, got it home but couldn't get it back so it had been at his house for a week, I don't think this info will be a lot of good to you but I had fitted an inline electric pump just before the primer to help bleed it and left in in circuit, I removed it and connected the ends together and it's fine again now, permanently I hope!

Try spraying some 'Easy Start' into the air intake if the fuel pressure is low it gives it a bit of a head start.

Peter
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by MattBLancs »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the suggestions, will have a look. Have been adjacent to the high pressure pump fiddling with the clutch slave cylinder connections so perhaps I have disturbed something there.

Did give the priming bulb a good pump but didn't seem to be any different.

It seems to be so consistent in the start-stop nature of it (the peaks on the Torque graph are different lengths but think this is sampling rate - they seem/ sound utterly identical in the flesh) that I'm not sure it's fuel related - my "gut feeling" is it is "not allowed to run" rather than "trying to run but no fuel delivered" - not sure if my descriptions make any sense.

Crank sensor must be working (as rpm changes captured by ECU / Torque) - think that can be a potential non-running cause.

Will have to get it back in the air and check every connection anywhere near where I've been.

Thanks,

Matt
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by Peter.N. »

Does the bulb go hard when you pump it and stay like it?

Peter
MattBLancs
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second) - clutch slave cylinder also now at fault!

Post by MattBLancs »

Hi Peter,

Sorry for the slow response, busy with work (and two small children) but had chance of a bit more of a fiddle with the C5

Fuel priming bulb - have pumped and pumped. It does get firmer but never "rock solid". I had a previous 306 with the XUD9TE engine, am sure that priming bulb went pretty much definition of "rock solid" if pumped and pumped. I'm not sure if I am effectively pumping fuel back to the tank via the return lines and in fact as firm as it's got is all I should expect (think so)

Anyway, my "fixed" clutch hydraulics clearly are nowt if the sort - I've a puddle since the car parked up. Just pumped the pedal and disturbing sensation as built up pressure released. Full length of the pipe run checked yesterday (all dry) today's pedal pumping led to a drip from the bell housing. So worst possible outcome materialised there - gearbox to come off.

(2.2, six speed = slave cylinder is concentric inside bell housing, unlike the 5 speed BE4 where it's sat on the front external and a mere trifle to swap)

Annoying failure - service history states 24/5/2016, 97 thousand miles= "remove and replace clutch and concentric release bearing "

Also same invoice, quote:
"Clutch kit £157.98
(Genuine) concentric bearing £114.36"

I don't believe the bearing is separate (nor that it's just the bearing alone for £114!?) So more than a little saddened to be staring down the barrel of this job now (141thousand miles, 6 years later)

Will ring the second hand car sales place I bought the car from, tomorrow morning and see if/what contribution he might make to this.

Happy bank holiday folks, hope yours goes better than mine!

Matt
MattBLancs
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by MattBLancs »

Oh, p.s. not tried easy-start yet, need a helper to turn key whilst I squirt the stuff sparingly into the intake.

Matt
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Actually those prices are / were correct!

A genuine OEM clutch slave cylinder / thrust bearing is now about £190 and the cheaper version (non original) available from Citroen about £117.
An OEM Clutch kit is now about £440 and £244 for a cheaper non OEM version.
MattBLancs
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by MattBLancs »

Hi Marc,

Thanks for checking - good to know. Or perhaps actually terrible to know - genuine slave cylinder failed so soon!

Oh well will make a start today/ tomorrow, rain dependent and see how far I get. Likely order replacements from Autodoc given it'll take me a while (evenings and weekends) till I need the new bits.

Thank goodness for "work from home" or more accurately thanks COVID-19 for making WFH acceptable!


May try and get an old laptop / diagbox capability up and running in parallel - then hopefully have another tool in my armoury for the non-running fault.

Thanks again,

Matt
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by Peter.N. »

Sounds as though your primer bulb non return is faulty, unless the is fuel coming out underneath! I rather liked the Rover 75 but that had one of those internal slave cylinders, I looked on a forum and it seems they fail at about the same rate as C5 steering racks. My fuel system leaked at the bottom connection to the HP pump, right up against the bulkhead - absolute pain.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... b&_sacat=0 I think the C5 is 10mm.

Peter
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Re: C5 X7 no start (or only runs for fraction of a second)

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Those ebay bulbs are not too good Peter, my C5 had to have them replaced three times while I owned it, the rubber perished and cracked until the leaked fuel out and let air in.
I've still got the one way valves out of the clapped out ones on my shelf. :(