C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

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sadssandiford
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C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by sadssandiford »

Hi all, I'm new to the forum so please be gentle.
My 2010 C3 Picasso 1.6hdi, 121000 miles, has recently failed the MOT for emissions, measured values 1.1 to 2.0, plate limit 0.51....!
Apart from the MOT fail the car runs like a dream, easy to start, 55+mpg, NO dashboard warning lights!
Tester told me to put diesel cleaner in and run it at 2k+ revs for 20/30 miles. I put in Wynns Diesel Extreme Cleaner and ran it around 2k+ revs for 60 miles.
Took it back for retest, still fails with measured values of 0.9 to 1.5, still NO dashboard warning lights.
I've been on the Internet and half the people say my car has a DPF/FAP, half say it hasn't....! Is there a definitive way to find out if it has...?
Also, does my car have Eloy tank and if it was empty, as I've never refilled it in the 5 years I've owed the car, would there be a dashboard warning.....?
PS car was serviced 8 months ago but car only done 4k miles in that time....

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Hi

Yes, pop your VIN up here (automasked on submission) and I’ll let you know what it has.

sadssandiford
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by sadssandiford »

Hi, C3 VIN is
VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

If it does have a DPF, does this mean it will also have Eolys fluid..?

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so:
1) Yes you have a Diesel Particulate Filter.
2) The additive system on this vehicle uses a soft pouch refill of about 1.1L
3) The additive pouch used contains 'Powerflex' additive - don't not use any type of additive or it can result in a faulty system.

You should get a warning when the additive level is getting low and it thinks you will run short before your next due service (as determined from when the last service reset was undertaken). How many miles has the car got on the clock?

See this link:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/333770670724?c ... ODEALw_wcB

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mickthemaverick
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by mickthemaverick »

Hi and :welc:
You will get all the answers from Marc soon so I'll leave it to him but in the meantime have a look around the forum from the board index above. You will find all sorts of entertainment, amusement and lively discussion, especially in the Off Topic Chat Lounge where you can be assured of a great welcome from a tremendous bunch of people. :-D

sadssandiford
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by sadssandiford »

Hi Marc, thanks for the answer.
I bought the car in 2016 with 91k on the clock.
It's now got 121k on the clock, it's a spare car used for holidays longer journeys, so most of the mileage is 60mph.
Ive never had a dashboard warning light on while I've owned the car, so never refilled additive, or know if it has been refilled in the past...

Can you run me through the dpf regen process? I've been reading that there is a fuel filler sensor? Is the regen speed or rev dependent? How does it carry out the regen..?

As I've no current dash warning light BUT it's failing MOT for emissions, current value 0.9 to 1.6, plate limit 0.51, is there a way to check if my dpf needs replacing? I've seen pics of "diagbox"?? showing dpf differential pressure and other regen/dpf parameters?
Do most garages have diagbox, as I'm booked it at local garage for fault code check.

One final question, would this MOT fail be caused by the wrong engine oil being used, eg not C2....?

Thanks again for all your assistance

Brent

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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by RichardW »

If the DPF is working it should sail the emissions test - if the tail pipe sooty? If it is, someone has been there before you and messed with the DPF....

I don't think these have a plate value - can you post a pic of the VIN plate so we can see?

C2 won't make any difference to the emissions - it just hastens the block up of the DPF due to depositing excess ash.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Hi Brent

1) Regeneration is automatic and under normal circumstances requires no intervention from the driver.
2) The engine ECU determines when a regeneration needs to take place.
3) Additive is injected into the fuel tank when fuel is added - usually determined by the quantity of fuel added, as calculated by the engine ECU from various factors, but from measured fuel at stop of vehicle and then determining whether fuel has been added after a stop and if so, injecting the correct amount into the fuel tank.

My thoughts on your situation:

Several things to consider whether during or prior to your ownership:

When the additive pouch is replaced (after a warning of low fluid level normally) the garage would reset the additive counter in the engine ECU. This tells the engine ECU that the additive has been filled up. The additive is not physically measured - it is estimated. Therefore if somebody prior to your ownership has reset the additive counter without actually replacing the pouch then the engine ECU will be none the wiser and will not give you the warning!

So my first thoughts are to get the pouch checked and replaced if necessary and the ECU reset again. If no additive fluid has been injected, then the engine will be relying on natural regeneration to take place - requiring the exhaust to reach temps of 550 °C instead of 450 °C.

It is also possible somebody, could of interfered with the system as Richard also says. So I think you need to have it checked professionally for signs of tampering.

Again, there should be no sooty deposits. If the DPF was present and working the soot would be trapped in the DPF and you would of had engine problems with the back pressure before it got to this point - so it's possible it has may have been 'removed' by some unscrupulous individual.

sadssandiford
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by sadssandiford »

Hi, again thanks for the info.
I believe stricter emissions rules came in for diesel emissions in May 2018.

My MOT history for emissions is as follows:

Jan 2021. Fail. 0.9-1.9 Limit 0.51
Jan 2020. Pass. No results
Jan 2019. Pass. 0.08. Limit 1.5
Jan 2018. Pass. 2.8. Limit 3.0
Jan 2017. Pass. 0.04. Limit 3.0

I know I havent taken dpf out and if the previous owner had, surely the readings would be higher than 0.08??

The fact its failing emissions but no warning light?
I've seen people talk about diagbox/lexia and it producing parameters about the dpf, eg differential pressures etc.
How wide spread is this software or is it specialist only?

I'm only asking as I like the car and had 2 new front springs, 2 new bottom suspension wishbones, new suspension strut and 2 new tyres in last 12 months. I don't want to go spending £400/£500 to fix this fault as it has advisories for rear disks which will be another £250 this year.
Is it worth getting this looked at or just ebay/scrapping.
The car runs like a dream, starts 1st turn and averages 55mpg so I like the car...

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by GiveMeABreak »

These were the changes in May 2018 for example - your car is Euro 5 certificated.
Vehicle first usedTypeLimit
Before July 2008Non-turboPlate value if present, or 2.5m-1 if lower
Before July 2008TurboPlate value if present, or 3.0m-1 if lower
On or after 1 July 2008All dieselsPlate value if present, or 1.5m-1
On or after 1 January 2014All dieselsPlate value if present, or 0.7m-1
So yours needs to meet the 1.5m-1 or lower.

So did you go for an Italian tune up before the MOT? This would make sure the exhaust was nice and hot and given a good clear out. I would still investigate the pouch status though as these are only 1.1L in volume so I would of expected it to be due for a change by now if it isn't already empty.

sadssandiford
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by sadssandiford »

Hi, thanks for the info.
The test is done against the manufacturer reported plate value or the limits shown above, which ever is the LOWEST. Therefore the Citroen reported plate value for my C3 9HP (DV6DTED) engined car must be 0.51..!
Yes, i drove around 20 miles at 2.5k+ revs before the test, so that should be enough...?
I don't understand how some of my readings, on past MOTs, can vary from 0.08 to 2 and back to 0.04 from year to year.....!
What could be causing these wild fluctuations....?

sadssandiford
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by sadssandiford »

With reference to the DPF Powerflex fluid, Is it easy to change/check the pouch? Where is it in the car? Are there any You Tube vids or instructions/photos available...?

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The additive pouch is contained in a tank next to the fuel tank: Here's the guide for you, but you will need Diagbox or a suitable diagnostic tool to reset the additive counter and prime the system as per the last 2 points:
Tools
image_2021-01-14_231805.png
image_2021-01-14_231805.png (49.91 KiB) Viewed 47 times
Plug Kit
ESSENTIAL: Before carrying out any work, put on protective goggles and gloves which are resistant to hydrocarbons.
C3 Pic Pouch A.PNG
C3 Pic Pouch B.PNG
CAUTION: Plug the openings using a plug kit.
Disconnect:
  • The connector (/) (en "a")
  • The tube (1)
Unclip the 3 fixings (3) (quarter-turn) by means of a screwdriver .
Remove the lower housing (2) with the flexible reservoir.
Detach the flexible reservoir (5) from the lower housing (2).
Uncouple and close the pipe (4).
Refitting
C3 Pic Pouch C.PNG
Remove the blanking piece of the pipe (4).
Couple the pipe (4) to the flexible reservoir (5).

CAUTION: The flexible reservoir (5) must not protrude sideways from the lower housing (2): Risk of damage (On reassembly).
Reinsert the flexible reservoir (5) in the lower housing (2).
Refit: The lower housing (2).
Clip the 3 fixings (3) (quarter-turn).
Re-connect the connector (en "a") (/).
Remove the Plug Kit.
Connect the pipe (1).
Refit the underbody protection(At the rear right) (If necessary).
Follow the battery reconnection part of BSI Reset / Battery Disconnect / Reconnect Procedure

CAUTION: Reset the additive counters to zero ; Using the diagnostic equipment.

Perform the actuator test "refilling the pipe: additive pump - additive injector" using a diagnostic tool.

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osx
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by osx »

Could a blanked EGR cause this?

sadssandiford
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Re: C3 Picasso 1.6hdi MOT Emissions fail....

Post by sadssandiford »

If it was it would have to have been blanked for at least the last 5 years by the original owner. If you look back at the historical mot emissions, I can't see how they could be so low on some of the years tests...!