Where to start?

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moomoo
Donor 2020
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Where to start?

Post by moomoo »

Hello all,
I have a Fiat Ducato 10 with the 1.9TD engine.... (1999) :oops:
I believe that quite a lot of the parts ...including gearbox parts are interchangeable with some Peugeot and Citroen models?
Looking through this and other forums it's clear that the gearbox used in the Ducato (and others) is prone to malfunction and even failure. Cheap manufacturing materials perhaps?
Anyway...Ive had this motorhome for about 3 weeks now and I was hoping to give the engine and gearbox an overhaul so it can be used in the spring.
The engine has 125,000 on it and is quite noisy.
The gearbox crunches and grates between gear changes and I'm not certain if the turbo is performing as it should. It seems quite heavy on fuel.
The trouble I'm having is sourcing parts for the gearbox. I've looked on various sites for parts and made several phone calls but either the parts are no longer available or the sellers want to know the code etc of the box.

So...

Does anyone know a way of finding the code for the particular box on my van? Could I find it by the VIN?
I think it's known as an ML5T under Peugeot but as an XUD under Fiat...I'm not even sure about that!....could someone please put me straight.
I also understand that 406 1.9TD is the same engine and box...is this correct?
I'm in a catch 22....I don't want to take everything out and dismantle it only to find I can't get the parts to do the repairs with.
can anyone tell me for certain which models of 1.9TD engine and box are interchangeable?
Also ....it seems impossible to find a workshop manual for the job.
I've scoured the internet and youtube looking for info on the overhaul procedure for the gearbox repair but it's seems near non-existent.
Sorry about all the questions straight away but I seem to have been chasing my tail for the past weeks.
Thanks
Moo

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Where to start?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

It will likely be the same here. These are essentially Fiats, with a mixture of tech depending on model / engine etc.

The issue we have is that we can only search the official source of parts using a VIN and you will have a Fiat VIN, not a PSA one, so we won't be able to determine what components, parts you have on your vehicle unfortunately.

This is something the Fiat dealer will be able to advise from your VIN - but as you say, once the parts are no longer available, you will start having issues with trying to source them. But if you had a list of the components you need parts for, I am sure Fiat would provide the part numbers for you and then you could use these to search on within the aftermarket spares sector or scrappies.

moomoo
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Re: Where to start?

Post by moomoo »

Hello Marc,
I've been reliably informed that the box I have is a ML5T...
This is from a gearbox reconditioning company who asked me to describe how the clutch cable was fed around the gearbox.
I could get hold of a couple of XUD gearboxes for not a lot but they may be worn in exactly the same places as mine!
I' ve seen one with only 49000 miles on it for £250...its still in the vehicle. A fire damaged Peugeot motorhome.
Ive been told that a lot of the damage occurs in theses transmissions through water ingress that stops the baulk ring being lubricate properly....which leads to synchromesh damage.
I'm reluctant however to spend £250 on a box that may have the same issues as the one I have...I'd sooner spend the money on refurbishing/overhauling the one in my van.
I could also get hold of a fully recon box with 12 month warranty for £950...but again if I can source the parts I'm sure I'd be able to do my own for less.
Do you think I'd still be able to get parts for a full overhaul?...It's not the bearings by the sounds of things that are hard to source....It's the synchromeshes and gear clusters (if needed). For all I know it may have broken teeth when it's stripped!
I'll try a Fiat dealer...see if i can get get any joy with the numbers
Ive checked the bell housing and gearbox casing and the 5th gear housing for numbers but there's nothing in sight.
Ive also been told that some of the boxes were made without stamping?....Could this be true?
Once again...sorry for the barrage of questions...I just need to find out as much as I can before starting.
Thanks
Moo
Last edited by moomoo on 16 Dec 2020, 19:12, edited 1 time in total.

Gibbo2286
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Re: Where to start?

Post by Gibbo2286 »


moomoo
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Joined: 15 Dec 2020, 18:11
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Re: Where to start?

Post by moomoo »

Thanks Gibbo,
I was looking at those earlier...
When you ask around for these gearbox parts you are often told they're obsolete...Yet they keep reconditioning the very same boxes....where do they get their obsolete parts from?
I'll probably start taking the engine and box out after the weekend.
I'm just gathering all the info I can initially.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Where to start?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so this is what I have on the ML5T Box as fitted to the early Relay in case it's of any use:
  • Manual transverse gearbox with 5 forward gears and one reverse gear:
  • Torque transmitted: 30 m.daN
  • Primary and secondary shafts: Type MG
  • Synchronizers: Type MG
  • Cone synchronizer driven by 3 studs with double friction surface
  • New internal speed control
  • New reverse gear brake control
  • Device preventing reverse gear being selected from 5th gear
  • Differential unit containing 4 planet wheels (utility vehicle)
Identification
image_2020-12-16_180704.png
image_2020-12-16_180704.png (70.9 KiB) Viewed 74 times
" a" Identification plate of gearbox .
" b" location of engraving of serial and gearbox numbers.
image_2020-12-16_180922.png
Designation:
(1) input shaft
(2) release bearing guide
(3) clutch housing
(4) gearbox casing
(5) oil tube spout
(6) primary shaft bearing clearance adjustment shim
(7) driving gear
(8) output shaft
(9) driven gear (1st gear)
(10) planet wheels
(11) speedometer pinion
(12) speedometer drive gear
(13) sun wheels
(14) differential box
(15) differential crown wheel
(16) differential bearing retaining plate
(17) 1st/2nd synchronizer and reverse driven gear
(18) driven gear (2nd gear)
(19) driven gear (3rd gear)
(20) 3rd/4th synchronizer
(21) driven gear (4th gear)
(22) driven gear (5th gear)
(23) synchronizer (5th gear)
(24) sun wheel adjustment shim

Application
Engine typeGearbox reference
Legislation typeCodeStandard tyresTyres on option
RFWXU10J2U20 LE 2120 LE 37
DJYXUD9AU20 LE 2120 LE 37
DHXXUD9UTF20 LE 2020 LE 36
T9ADJ520 LE 1920 LE 35
T9ADJ5 chronospeedometer option20 LE 5220 LE 54
Data
Gearbox reference12345Reverse gearcrown wheel and pinionSpeedometer drive gearSpeedometer drive gear
20 LE 1911x4118x3528x3541x3749x3313x26x4113x7325x20(plastic)
20 LE 2011x4123x4131x3740x3549x3313x26x4114x7525x20(plastic)
20 LE 2111x4123x4127x3732x3143x3313x26x4113x7325x20(plastic)
20 LE 3511x4118x3528x3541x3749x3313x26x4113x7326x20(plastic)
20 LE 3611x4123x4131x3740x3549x3313x26x4114x7526x20(plastic)
20 LE 3711x4123x4127x3732x3143x3313x26x4113x7326x20(plastic)
20 LE 5211x4118x3528x3541x3749x3313x26x4113x7325x20(steel)
20 LE 5411x4118x3528x3541x3749x3313x26x4113x7326x20(steel)
Lubrication
Capacity1,85 litre
Oil qualityRefer to the Manufacturer’s recommendations
Check the oil levelOil level plug
Drain and refillThe gearbox is lubricated for life
Tightening Torques
image_2020-12-16_181316.png
ReferenceDesignationNumberM.daN torque
25Reverse lamp switch12,5
26Gearbox and clutch housing fixings132
27Speedometer drive support11,5
28Oil level plug13
29gearbox drain plug13
30Differential bearing locking plate screw42
315th gear cover screw52
32Differential housing fixings (screws M8)72
33Differential housing fixings (screws M10)62
image_2020-12-16_181443.png
image_2020-12-16_181443.png (76.43 KiB) Viewed 74 times
ReferenceDesignationNumberM.daN torque
34secondary shaft nut117
35Gear control bracket screw61,5
36differential gearwheel screw127,5
image_2020-12-16_181532.png
image_2020-12-16_181532.png (45.47 KiB) Viewed 74 times
ReferenceDesignationNumberM.daN torque
37Bearing retaining plate screw22
38Fork securing bolts (5th gear)12,5

Special features
Reverse gear brake
The reverse gear brake is used to reduce the rotational speed of the primary shaft quickly, then stop it when reverse gear is selected.

Device preventing reverse gear being selected from 5th gear
When changing from 5th gear, a locking pin moves to prevent reverse gear from being selected.

Primary and secondary shafts
The primary and secondary shafts are of MG type.

Synchronizers
The synchronizers are of MG type (new generation Borg Warner).
1st/2nd gear synchronizer: Double synchronizer with single cone and integrated ball bearings.
3rd/4th synchronizer: Double synchronizer with single cone and integrated ball bearings.
5th gear synchronizer: Single synchronizer with integrated ball bearings (on the primary shaft).

This is the old Parts Diagram for this Gearbox:
image_2020-12-16_182038.png

moomoo
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Re: Where to start?

Post by moomoo »

Hello again,
This is the vin umber and reg.
VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
WV02 BWF
Thanks
Moo

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Where to start?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

That's a '1' not an "L" incidentally :-D

So the engine is an XUD9TE with an ML5T Gearbox.

moomoo
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Re: Where to start?

Post by moomoo »

Thank you Marc...
I'll get in touch with the owner and ask him to get it out of the van for me.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Where to start?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

No worries.