C2 engine ECU in a C3?

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ozvtr
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C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by ozvtr »

Hi from the antipodes.
I am trying to get a C2 SAGEM S2000PM1 to work in a C3.
The C3 is running a KFV engine with a SAGEM S2000PM1 ECU and an AL4 auto box (I am swapping the two engine ECUs).
It appears that the ECUs are ‘hard coded’ to the model. I.E. the C2 ECU will only respond to the LEXIA if I select C2 as the car. If I select C3 I just get ‘?’ for faults in the global test page, it won’t identify and I get strange results when I try to configure it. If I select C2 the ECU identifies and configures but I only get manual gearbox options (LONG or SHORT?). The ECU actually runs the engine however the auto ECU is complaining that there is no CAN data from the engine ECU.
YES, I have checked the configuration of the BSI. I am sure it will set the auto/piloted gearbox to ‘present’.
So, my question: is it possible to re-configure the C2 manual engine ECU to work in an auto C3? Or am I missing something? Or is it just a plain ‘NO!’?
Thanks.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

You do realise the Engine ECU, BSI and transponder keys have to be a matched set and you can't just swap them?

And secondly, there was no fully automatic gearbox (AL4) on the C2 - only the manual and the hydraulically operated manual. So it is possible that the C2 engine ECU is not able to accept or talk to the AL4 gearbox ECU.

Also, the multiplexed networks will also factor in of they are different.

ozvtr
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by ozvtr »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
13 Oct 2020, 14:41
You do realise the Engine ECU, BSI and transponder keys have to be a matched set and you can't just swap them?
Hi Marc,
Yes, I do realize that and as I said I actually have the engine running in the C3 using the C2's ECU (sorry if that was not clear). As you know, if they were not matched, the engine would not run.
GiveMeABreak wrote:
13 Oct 2020, 14:41
only the manual and the hydraulically operated manual.
You mean the electrically operated SENSODRIVE. Like the C2 VTR that I also own? I am not familiar with every single variant of the C2 or C3 produced but if you say there were no AL4 versions of the C2 I'll take your word for it. I can not remember if the 'piloted manual gearbox' is an option in gearbox types menu for the engine ECU I am trying to configure.
GiveMeABreak wrote:
13 Oct 2020, 14:41
Also, the multiplexed networks will also factor in of they are different.
Maybe, but both engine ECUs are SAGEM S2000PM1s configured for KFV engines, both are Mk1 CAN/VAN cars. Both the engine ECU and gearbox ECU are sitting on the CAN BUS. So I don't think that is a factor, in this case.
GiveMeABreak wrote:
13 Oct 2020, 14:41
it is possible that the C2 engine ECU is not able to accept or talk to the AL4 gearbox ECU.
Ah, now we are finally getting to my question. Can it or cant it? If it can how do I fix it? If it cant ...fine, but I'm after a definite answer.
I need an expert on the ECUs to answer my question please.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I meant the electro-hydraulically controlled system.

As for C2 multiplexing, they were not all CAN / VAN - see dates below.

CAN / VAN was used until 01/09/2005
CAN / CAN was used from 02/09/2005 So yes, it can make a difference

ECUs:

C2: Johnson Controls (formerly Sagem) ECUs were used on C2 1.4i KFV engines and these are specifically the J34P Type ECU.
C3: For the MK I, there was only one 1.4i KFV variant that used a Sagem ECU and that type was different - an S2000PM1.

So there you have your answer they are not the same ECUs - it they performed the same functions and had the same capabilities, they wouldn't need to fit a different ECU between models of this type of engine. ......

If you supplied the VINs for both the C2 and the C3 I can confirm multiplexing types, but you're unlikely to get detailed internal ECU data here - this is a general Forum.

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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by wheeler »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
14 Oct 2020, 10:58
I meant the electro-hydraulically controlled system.
The piloted manual (sensodrive) is not like the current EGS systems, they are fully electro mechanical, No hydraulics at all.

Is the J34P ecu not a full CAN ecu?? The OP has said both ecu’s are from mk1 VAN/CAN models.

This is a strange one as the C2 & C3 are almost electrically identical & it would be unusual for them to produce 2 Different ECU’s.

What has happened to the original ECU?

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I'm going to bow out of this one as there are too many variables in these (Euro 3, Euro 4, Multiplexing CAN VAN/CAN CAN differences and the Piloted Gearbox ECU compatibility to consider) and I won't have time to delve deeper at present - so I'll leave this with Wheeler.

ozvtr
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by ozvtr »

wheeler wrote:
14 Oct 2020, 20:09
Is the J34P ecu not a full CAN ecu?? The OP has said both ecu’s are from mk1 VAN/CAN models.
Hi Wheeler

Both ECUs are SAGEM S2000PM1s. From what I understand the engine ECU, the gearbox ECU (in this case for an AL4) and the ABS ECU sit on the CAN BUS and are therefore CAN devices anyway. Irrespective of whether the "car" is CAN/VAN or CAN/CAN a CAN ECU should work on the CAN BUS??? But I digress, this is not the problem I'm having ATM.
wheeler wrote:
14 Oct 2020, 20:09
This is a strange one as the C2 & C3 are almost electrically identical & it would be unusual for them to produce 2 Different ECU’s.
Exactly! This was my theory when I bought the ECU "kit" but I didn't figure on the cunning b@stards at PSA screwing me around! ...And it's worse than that. At least 4 ECUs! Manual C2, auto C2, manual C3, auto C3? Is there possibly more combinations? With or without sensodrive? Is the sensodrive considered a different gearbox to the auto? Is that another permutation?
I could possibly understand an auto and manual version (talk to the auto box or not, might require changes in the code) but a C2 version and a C3 version? To artificially inflate prices? Ok, I can understand LEXIA not identifying an 'automatic' ECU in a C2...they never had them, but the C3 did have a manual version. So Lexia should correctly identify the manual ECU in a C3, but it doesn't. What is different between the two models that the ENGINE ECU needs to be different? I could understand the BSI, after all the C3 has 2 extra doors! But guess what? I got the C2 BSI working fine in the C3 and the rear child locks (button on the dash) work perfectly!!! No rear doors in a C2, let alone child locks!!!
Have I missed something? Has anyone else seen or heard of this happening?
wheeler wrote:
14 Oct 2020, 20:09
What has happened to the original ECU?
Um, as Doc Brown might say, "it's a science experiment". I am a technician buy trade and nature and need to know how things work. Besides, what if one of the ECUs in my car did blow up? What then? Have cars become like printers? If an ECU blows up...just buy another car, it's cheaper?
I can not put the original engine ECU back in with the C2 BSI because I do not have the 'old' engine ECU pin code. I do have the current (C2) engine/BSI PIN code and as an experiment, I have updated the BSI firmware and re-coded the key (that came with the 'kit'). If I could, I would put the 'old' ECU back in with the 'new' BSI and code in the 'new' key (because the C2 fob transmitter is bound to the 'new' BSI). I have no qualms in saying the 'old' engine ECU would work with the C2 BSI.
No one seems to have tried this before!? I find that hard to believe.
If the data is written on the ROM of the MCU and cant be changed...then fine...I have learnt something and I'll move on!!! I know what to do in the future. But no one seems to know.
Thanks.

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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by wheeler »

ozvtr wrote:
15 Oct 2020, 03:03
wheeler wrote:
14 Oct 2020, 20:09
Is the J34P ecu not a full CAN ecu?? The OP has said both ecu’s are from mk1 VAN/CAN models.
Hi Wheeler

Both ECUs are SAGEM S2000PM1s. From what I understand the engine ECU, the gearbox ECU (in this case for an AL4) and the ABS ECU sit on the CAN BUS and are therefore CAN devices anyway. Irrespective of whether the "car" is CAN/VAN or CAN/CAN a CAN ECU should work on the CAN BUS??? But I digress, this is not the problem I'm having ATM.
The only thing that may be an issue on the VAN/CAN models CAN (on the under bonnet stuff) has a transmission speed of 250 kb/second. On the full CAN models the high speed CAN for the under bonnet stuff) has a speed of 500 kb/second so not sure if they would be compatible?

Do you have the RP numbers of both cars?

ozvtr
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by ozvtr »

Unfortunately I dont have the number for the donor C2.
The number for the C3 is 9794.
The C2 AD said it was an from an 04 furio.
pictures 047.jpg
I don't know if it helps but here is a pic of the two ECUs.
I have contacted the Ebay seller but I am waiting for a reply.

ozvtr
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by ozvtr »

No joy, body shell was scrapped.

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myglaren
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by myglaren »

ozvtr wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 00:54
No joy, body shell was scrapped.
Any paperwork left ha might identify it?

ozvtr
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Re: C2 engine ECU in a C3?

Post by ozvtr »

No, sorry.
The guy normally breaks classic minis and got a hold of the C2. He just broke up the bits he could, put those bits on Ebay and scraped the rest. The C2 is not a car he normally deals with. At the time I was very lucky that he had the documentation package which included the PIN card but it's all gone now. #-o