2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

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JTR1971
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2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by JTR1971 »

I'm hoping the experts on here can help me understand what components are failing on our pic. In a nutshell we've had the odd issue when starting the car in the last couple of months, rather than fire up first time it will just turn over for a couple of seconds and just die. Not being mechanically astute, although it has peaked my interest over the last couple of years and with the assistance of service box (sadly no longer available to me, not without serious coinage) i've managed to order and swap out the relevant parts to keep the Mrs and kids moving on their 10 miles a day trips.

Today, I sadly had to envoke the asstance of the guy's in the yellow vans and in order to get the car going he was banging on the bottom of the fuel tank while I attempted to start the car. After some banging, the car came to life and had no issues starting again a few time this afternoon but I know when the car wiill be needed it will refuse to bl**dy start.

So, the expert says I need a new fuel pump...however after a bit if digging and dismay at my inability to review exploded diagrams on service box, I reach out to you. Now, does the 05 1.6 HDI PIC (9HY) actually have an in-tank fuel pump. If not, what could he have possibly dislodged in the tank to enable the engine to fire or is this a red herring?

In the last 18 months, new EGR valve, Alternator and drive pulleys + tensioner, (slight leak on injector 1, minimal carbon buildup so all were retorqued to 4NM +65 degrees) and a new battery)

Any theories would be most welcome, exploded diagram even better.

Cheers Guys\Gals

Jeff

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myglaren
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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by myglaren »

Post your VIN so it can be defined whether or not an in-tank pump is fitted.
If you look in the engine bay and can see a primer bulb, or if there is a plunger button on the fuel filter then there will be no in-tank pump.
41KJWQu5EXL._AC_SY400_ML2_.jpg
Also,listen carefully at the first turn of the key, if there is an in-tank pump it should run for about five seconds to prime the system. As it is suspect then this may not happen though.

Welcome to the FCF :)

JTR1971
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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by JTR1971 »

Hey myglaren, many thanks for the response.

Yep definately a priming bulb located under engine cover....it just seems odd that a smack of the fuel tank with potentially no pump would get the thing firing.

Cheers

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white exec
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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by white exec »

Do post the VIN, and then we can check the innards of the fuel tank for details of strainer, pick-up tube, etc.

JTR1971
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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by JTR1971 »

Hi Guy's,

The VIN is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

Many thanks

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes, no in-tank pump on this.

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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Here's a little more detail for you. This is the DV6TED4 110 (without Particle Filter).
Picasso Fuel DV6TED4 Non FAP Fuel Supply A.PNG
Flow Chart - Fuel Supply

Key:
  • A - Fuel tank return circuit
  • B - Low pressure fuel circuit (negative pressure)
  • C - High pressure fuel circuit

Picasso Fuel DV6TED4 Non FAP Fuel Supply.PNG
ReferenceDesignation
aDiesel injector fuel return towards fuel tank
1 to 4Diesel injectors (electrohydraulic)
5Fuel cooler
6Fuel tank
7Sensor for presence of water in diesel fuel (according to model)
8Fuel filter + water in fuel separator
9high pressure fuel pump
10Fuel temperature sensor
11Fuel high pressure common injection rail
12High pressure fuel sensor
13Manual fuel primer pump
14"T" adaptor union
154-way union (3 inlets ; 1 outlet)
16Discharge jet
17Waste gate
18Flow jet
19Transfer pump
20Fuel flow regulator
Special features:
  • The discharge jet ( 16) permits a rapid discharge from the fuel high pressure common injection rail when there is a rapid "foot off".
  • The flow jet (18) limits the supply of fuel to the transfer pump (19) at high engine speeds.
  • Fuel supply circuit with negative pressure: Induction by transfer pump integral to the fuel high pressure pump.
  • Fuel heater function incorporated in the fuel filter.
  • Water in diesel fuel detector (7) (according to market).
General:
Picasso Fuel DV6TED4 Non FAP Fuel Supply B.PNG
ReferenceDesignationSpecial feature
bFuel outlet from diesel fuel filter towards T adaptor-
cFuel outlet towards fuel tankGreen endpiece : Ø 8 mm
dFuel inlet towards the fuel filterWhite endpiece : Ø 10 mm
eFuel inlet into the transfer pumpThe transfer pump is incorporated in the fuel high pressure pump
fFuel outlet from the high pressure pump towards the fuel high pressure common rail-
gFuel outlet from the high pressure pump towards the fuel tank-
hFuel inlet into the fuel filter-

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white exec
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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by white exec »

After the AA man's hitting the tank, just to add Marc's info on Level sender, but no pump...
Picasso 1.6HDi fuel tnk.JPG
Not sure about Picasso, but fuel interruptions at the tank not unknown.
- pick-up strainer/coarse filter (likely part of the pick-up/sensor) blocked
- plastic tank bottoms have been known to rise upwards, when tank not very full, and block off the pick-up
- crud/sludge/water in the bottom of the tank
- partial vacuum in the tank (breather not functioning)

A thud to the bottom of the tank could dislodge some of these, temporarily.

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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by JTR1971 »

Many thanks for the prompt responses and the staggering level of detail, I will pick through this tomorrow and try and figure out where I go next.

I wish you all well in these crazy times.

All the best

Jeff

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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by admiral51 »

Hi And welcome Jeff :)

If you go down the route of changing the fuel pickup/sender in tank unit the tank sealing ring will be tight and brittle.The lugs on it will snap just by looking at them so try to lever the ring round and not tap it, don't ask how i know :oops: #-o
The unit is sprung so will be pushing up on the sealing ring so once you get it started push down on the unit, makes it easier to undo and do look out for the seal maybe sat it the ring.
Colin

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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by JTR1971 »

Many thanks for all your posts, apologies for the delay in responding I'm just returning to the land of the living after this blasted virus...I think we have a couple of issues on the car. IML flagging what look to be EGR related codes P0409, P1162, P04090 indicating sticking valves and issues programming so wondered whether this could be a potential cause with the valve being stuck open\closed. I attempted to clean the valve yesterday after removing and cleaning with carb cleaner and a toothbrush. The helical ramp seemed to be a little obstructed by dry powdered carbon deposits so all looked good after a spray etc. I did notice that the spring mechanism part of the valve (electrical side) didn't spring back all the way and was probably open by about a quarter of an inch, but nothing I could do as a sealed unit so reassembled. EGR faults still remain, so looks like another EGR valve (last one replaced March 19) required providing I can sort the fuel issue. So, I've noticed that whenever I disconnect the battery (observing the 3-minute rule) the car is a nightmare to start when reconnecting for the first time, on this occasion it was no exception. So much so, I got completely hacked off with it yesterday and left for this morning, now after double checking all pipes and electrical connections that I may have disturbed yesterday I was still struggling to get the thing started and I was thinking maybe immobiliser problem as was turning over but not firing…until, I smacked the fuel tank with a hammer a few times…it then came to life.

So would a faulty fuel level gauge (Assuming that’s all this does, doesn’t appear to have a problem providing a reading) prevent the car from starting because my gut feeling is this is electrical, I know this sounds really crazy despite me using a hammer. 😊

Second question is, should I get a replacement EGR valve will this require reprogramming? Looking online for a replacement at various establishments some say it requires recoding and others don’t mention this step or is it a model dependant process.

Colin, cheers for the tip re sender unit, I will bear this in mind should I get to that stage…cheers 😊

Many thanks for your help guys\gals.

Cheers

Jeff

JTR1971
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Re: 2005 Xsara Picasso 1.6 HDi - Fuel Delivery

Post by JTR1971 »

G'day,

I just thought I'd provide an update on the above. A BSI reset has miraculously sorted the hit a miss starting scenario and the engine has fired every time 3\4 times a day for about 3 weeks now. EGR valve replaced over the weekend and it't now P0409, P1162, P4090 fault free...however, I've developed the P1462 fault post EGR valve change and I'm assuming it's something I've done. I wondered whether you kind folk could provide a definitive answer on this fault code. P1462

Cheers for your help.

Many thanks

Jeff