Diagnosing a fault

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ChangyUK
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Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

I am looking to purchase some diagnostic software so that I can make a start on a dead Xsara Picasso 1.6 petrol on an 07 plate.

The car belongs to my parents, and their budget is limited. I am a competent (coughs quietly) engineer and perform most of my repairs :rofl2:

The car decided it would not start again and is now sitting on their drive. My father had a local mechanic check the basics, and he believes fuel is okay as is a spark. I am slightly dubious and want to determine the best way to resolve this without spending a fortune.

I have completed a quick visual inspection and the obvious things like, belts, the tensioner is okay. I cannot see any fuel, oil or water leaks. The battery holds a charge, and the engine will turn over, albeit slowly in my humble opinion. I am not familiar with this car, so perhaps it is normal for the starter to be slow?

I tried the Carista iOS app, but it only offers a simple diagnostic function, and no faults are listed.

Where should I start in terms of diagnostics and fault elimination? I apologise in advance for such a vague post. I hope that with diagnostics, I can begin to look in the correct area.

TIA

Changy

PS I am not sure where to enter the VIN?
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

I am back after checking out potential problems using Google. I also had an e-mail from Jim at Easy Diagnostics and he mentioned the immobiliser. The car is showing Economy Mode which I now know means the battery is not fully charged. I am concerned the battery issue has triggered a scanning fault for the key and the immobiliser is preventing the car starting. I found this on here from @GiveMeABreak

The car may have gone into anti-scanning mode / or if too many atempts are made at starting the engine without the key being recognised it will lock the engine ECU for a few minutes. The result of a poor battery and probably not following the correct procedure for connecting the battery up after disconnection may also be to blame.

I've modified this procedure for the Xsara Picasso as the battery is under the passenger seat - but give it a go:
Put the driver's window down and ensure all equipment is switched off.
Sitting in the back - get access to the battery negative terminal.
Ensure all doors are closed and remove key from the ignition.
Wait for 3 minutes, disconnect the vehicle battery and wait for 5 minutes.
Reconnect the vehicle battery, wait a further 2 minutes (do not open doors).
Switch on the ignition only and check system's functionality.
Remove key and lock / unlock the car a few times.
Insert the key in the ignition, turn ignition on and hold the lock button for 5 seconds.
Remove key open & close door test central locking system again.
Start the engine.
If the battery is quite old - charging it up may not be sufficient if it is at the end of its duty cycle. Consider getting a new battery if it is older than 5-6 years as that is the usual life of a standard battery - depending on use of course. Older batteries will not be able to hold a full charge and will drain quicker. The Picasso, like most newer cars have a lot of electrical systems that require a good battery.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

That's part of the proper procedure for disconnecting / reconnecting the battery / BSI reset procedure I put up here:

BSI Reset / Battery Disconnect / Reconnect Procedure

Just enter the VIN details in your post here when replying (it will auto mask when the post is submitted, but I can read it).

So if the car is not starting, are you getting a warning lamp on the dash? It may be int he form of a yellow key, symbol, or a message on the dash?

Try resynchronising the key:

First leave the car for 10 minutes without trying to start it.
Put one key in the ignition and turn the key to the ignition on position and within 10 seconds, press the lock button on the fob, then release the key (do not attempt to start the car straight away). Repeat with the second fob if you have one.

Then get out the car and lock / unlock the doors to test the central locking.
Then try the fob and see if the car starts.
If not then more troubleshooting is needed.
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

Marc
Here is the VIN VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

When I reconnect the fully charged battery, will economy mode automatically deactivate?

Changy
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 15:36
That's part of the proper procedure for disconnecting / reconnecting the battery / BSI reset procedure I put up here:

BSI Reset / Battery Disconnect / Reconnect Procedure


So if the car is not starting, are you getting a warning lamp on the dash? It may be int he form of a yellow key, symbol, or a message on the dash?
Thanks, I will drive over to my parents tomorrow and check the warning lights. I have the battery on charge and will reconnect it.
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

I tested the battery and the voltage was dreadful, it was dropping to 9 volts when trying to turn the engine. It did recover to 11.5 volts but that was it. I took it to a car spares shop and it failed with a shunt test.
Citroen dash.JPG
Sadly, I fitted the new battery, followed the instructions, and still, nothing happened. I am seeing "Economy Mode Active" and have attached an image. I apologise for the poor quality. I have a video too, but I am not sure if I can upload directly to the forum?

I hope this link works



What can I try next?

TIA

Changy
Last edited by GiveMeABreak on 03 Feb 2020, 14:10, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Corrected YouTube Code and Image Placement
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so looking at that you have the engine management light on. The next step is getting it diagnosed (preferably with Lexia) to help determine what the engine management is not happy about. Without a diagnostic this will be pure guesswork. As you've replaced the battery, followed the 'Battery Connect Reset Procedure', resynched the fobs and there is no immobiliser fault showing, this needs to be the next step, as you've eliminated the easiest things to check.

EDIT: I forgot you have ordered your Lexia kit, so as soon as you get this get the Global Diagnostic done and report the codes back to us here :wink:
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

Hi again

I know it has been a month but trying to get diagnostics was tricky. A forum member kindly agreed to bring his Lexia software but trying to arrange a meeting time was tricky. It was costly to buy a kit for single-use on a car I do not own.

The fault is the crankshaft sensor; code P0336. My parents seem to think the sensor was changed, but the guy who claimed to have done it is unreliable, and they are not confident he did the work. Is there a known issue with the connectors or wiring on this car's sensor?

Could there be a more sinister aspect to this type of fault, or does the sensor protect the setup from serious issues?

Any help is welcomed.

TIA
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Sensors, like anything else can and do fail - it's a simple replacement. But the issue is of quality - if it was replaced with a cheap version then don't expect miracles. With things like this you should go for a branded replacement. But also check the wiring / plug is ok also. Part 19207P is the part for your car.
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
01 Mar 2020, 15:41
Sensors, like anything else, can and do fail - it's a simple replacement. But the issue is of quality - if it was replaced with a cheap version then don't expect miracles. With things like this, you should go for a branded replacement. But also check the wiring/plug is ok also. Part 19207P is the part for your car.
Hi

Yeah, I am always keen to use an OEM part if possible. The cheap Chinese copies cause more trouble than the money they save. I am used to sourcing BMW parts, where would you recommend for genuine or top brand parts for Citroen?

I will also check the wiring and the connectors, a quick bit of online research has shown a few corroded connectors causing an issue.

Lastly, is there an online source for exploded engine layout diagrams to help me locate the sensor and cable?

Thanks again

Changy

EDIT: I have found Delphi Bosch Hella and NGK. These are all top brands so I assume they would suffice?
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

It should be pretty easy to get to. This is the only diagram I have - part (6):
Xsara Picasso Crank.PNG
Yes, either of those brands are fine - Citroen currently charge £37.38 inc. VAT.
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

Marc

Thanks, it appears to be located behind the flywheel. I have ordered a Delphi unit and will get it replaced later this week. It seems strange that after 45 years of tinkering with cars, this is my first crankshaft sensor failure!

Great site, so happy I found it!

Changy
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by xantia_v6 »

While you have it apart to get access t the sensor, it might be worth checking continuity in the wires between the sensor and ECU, harness faults are not unknown.
ChangyUK
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by ChangyUK »

The sensor arrived, and I finally have time to attempt the repair. I had a quick look but will be honest and say I could not locate it!

The online information suggests it is behind the bottom left pulley, but for access, I will probably need to remove the wheel and arch trim on the driver's side, or is there another way to get at this sensor?

Where are the safe jacking points for this car?

TIA

Changy
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Re: Diagnosing a fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I've circled the jacking points in red:
xsara kack.PNG