peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

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Falconar12
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peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by Falconar12 »

Hi all A couple of weeks ago I was on a short journey when suddenly the dash stop warning light came on then everything on the dash flashed on and off and the speedo stopped working. I pulled up just down the road just a short distance from where I had to go. When I returned and tried to start, the battery would not turn the engine over, This a fairly new fully charged battery.
My son fetched me another battery and the car started and I managed to get home and the instrument panel was working. By the time I had arrived home which was less than ten minutes away the battery was flat again. On inspection I saw that the Alternator B terminals were absolutely burned black and some plastic had melted. I removed and tested the
alternator and of course it was U/S. A recon was fitted and tried again. No different. I then connected a multmeter to the battery and switched on. It went from 12.65 volts to 11.15v in two seconds.
It seems there is a very heavy discharge from the battery and the original alternator overheated and blew in trying to cope with the demands.
All instruments work normally until the battery goes completley flat, and all lights, doors etc respond Ok.
I am absolutely stumped as there is no burning smell anywhere can't find anything getting hot and just wondered where all the energy that is being taken from the battery
Is going too. I have removed all starter motor terminals but same response. alternator disconnected, same,
The discharge only occurs when the ignition switch is turned on. If anyone can help I would be really greatful. As a retired mechanic I do have a reasonable electrics
knowledge but cannot solve this. Please help.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I think you need to start looking at the engine fusebox and connections from the battery terminals back to the starter. Pop up your VIN so we know exactly what model you have.

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by Falconar12 »

Hi Marc, thanks for the reply. I tried removing all terminals on the starter motor, insulating them and reconnecting the battery. Ignition switch on an same result.
I pulled all the 60 amp fuses and just the same.
My VIN number is VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
Tony

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Hi Tony. Ok, so this is the 406 Restyled with DW10ATED Engine without particle Filter. These diagrams may help with the starting circuit.

Here is the Starting Circuit Electrical Diagram

Note: Item 1010 is the Starter Motor - but yours is the left hand box with the marching ants, with the 'DW' in the top right hand corner.

1020 : alternator
1030 : engine-on information relay
0004 : instrument panel /
BH28 : passenger compartment 28-fuse box /
BM34 : engine slave unit 34 fuse(s)
BSI: BSI unit in the passenger Glovebox
Anything beginning 'MC' is an earthing point.

Any other codes, look on the wiki here:

https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/wiki/Elect ... ring_Codes

Image


Here is the Wiring Details of the Above

Image

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by xantia_v6 »

I strongly suspect that your battery has failed, possibly because the original alternator was overcharging it. Or perhaps the car was jump started with the battery polarity wrong (which would also explain the burned alternator terminal).

Try fitting another known good battery and see if the symptoms change.

If you think about it, a good fully charged battery can supply 200 A for a couple of minutes while cranking the engine, so there is little likelihood that a good battery will go flat in that time without melting cables.

If you want to be more scientific, you really need to measure the current being drawn from the battery with the ignition on. I don't know what the normal current would be for your vehicle, but guess that it would be in the 4 - 10 A range with the engine stopped.

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white exec
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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by white exec »

From battery+, take a look at the maxi fuses, which I guess will be next along the line (maybe after a HD splitter junction). These will fuse everything except the starter motor. Alternator (which I know you've already disconnected) might have its own fuse on the main cable, or not.

Pulling the maxi fuses might help narrow down where the heavy drain is.

Glowplugs will operate (cold weather) as soon as IGN is fully switched on, and would pull 40-50A in all.
Maybe a short here? Check GP relay and the HD cables to and from it. Melted connections not unknown here.
_______

From your description, it sounds as if there was a short/partial short/extremely heavy current drain somewhere, which the alternator did its best to supply, but eventually gave up the ghost.

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by Falconar12 »

Thank you all for the replies.

One brand new battery, another used but good. The battery voltage was pulled so low that
although it wasn't actually dead flat it was too low to turn the engine over. This voltage did recover after a time
Jump leads not used. As stated it was pulled down to 11.15 volts instantly, starter motor and alternator disconnected.

Chris, fuses have been pulled but just the same I am going to follow your suggestion and check the glow plugs. I have got
to find out where the relay location is first. I think you are spot on with the alternator burnout too. Very logical.

Marc, Thanks for the diagrams but I am from the [very very old school] of mechanics and the circuit diagrams were very explicit
and easy to follow in those years. I am afraid I am lost with these diagrams and just cannot get my head around them. Not suprising at 83.
I just want to trace all the places the 12v power cables were likely to be located ie relays and components. Still I thank you
for the trouble and time locating and loading these items.

Tony.

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white exec
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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by white exec »

Tony,
GP relay will look like this, and is usually near the battery.
Heavy duty connections are on the underside - one perm +12 direct from battery, other is output to the GPs.
Small connector is control from IGN sw etc.
GP relay.JPG
GP relay.JPG (15.56 KiB) Viewed 115 times
The innards contain a small timing circuit for pre-heat and post-heat, duration depending on coolant temp.

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by Falconar12 »

Hello Chris, I removed the glowplug relay and switched on and the battery voltage stayed up, so right again. What are they feeding you in Sayalonga :-D
I have ordered a new one and will be here this afternoon. Thanks so much. I do however have another problem. My battery battery removal and replacement has upset
the bsi settings and now everthing in the car works except the windows. I tried the lights on ignition on and hold down key buttons for ten seconds but it does not seem to do any good.
Really is my bad for not taking more care . I am just hoping you might be able to wave your magic wand again :lol:

Tony

PS . Engine starts and runs fine and alternator charging 14.1volts

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white exec
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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by white exec »

Marc can advise on BSI reset - he's the expert on that one.

Glad you narrowed it down to the GP relay.
When you get your new one, and before bolting it down, connect it up EXCEPT the output cable to the GPs.
Connect a 12v bulb to the output (and Gnd) instead, and check the action of the new relay.
It is just possible that the fault was not with the relay itself, but with how it was being switched on through the multiway (5-way?) connector.
Just need to be certain that this doesn't happen again.

Might also be worth checking the GPs, in case any were damaged by being run continuously.
Each one should take about 9-10amp.
You might be able to test without removing them, by just removing the cable that connects all four together.

Good news, though. :)

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I think you've been reading the 1000th version that people have made up on the internet over the years:

This tries to cover most models including Stop & Start on later vehicles - so I have stated the parts to follow for these vehicles - just ignore the bits not applicable:

BSI Reset / Battery Disconnect / Reconnect Procedure

When complete - reinitialise the anti pinch (if fitted) for your windows - with the engine running, hold the window button up, If it stops, keep releasing the button and applying it again until the window is fully closed, then hold the button in for a few seconds until you hear a soft click.

That is the window anti pinch initialised.

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by Falconar12 »

Hi Marc Thanks for a very comprehensive explanation on BSI reset. I haven't tried it yet as only just finished the other job and got beaten by the light and runout of steam.
I dont seem to have stamina that I used to. Can't think why :) I will report back after my next session.

Chris, I have checked the glow plugs by removing the power lead and looking at resistance. They seem to be OK. I then did the bulb test and the light did go out but took about
seven seconds. Does that seem about right? The dash glow light only stays on for a couple of seconds. Still it does seem to be working OK. Have got to refit the drive belt
as it is one spline out. Think I might be out of practice. Have to buck my ideas up :-D Are you a native of Spain or did you move and retire from Bllighty.

Tony

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white exec
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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by white exec »

GP relay sounds AOK.

Dash light will go out quite rapidly, as soon as the GPs are producing decent heat - takes only a few seconds - and is earliest chance of a good start.

The 7 secs is what the system thinks is needed for GP operation at the time of your test. It is checking coolant temperature. Post-heat - after engine fires up - (for a 'smoke-free' start, and 'lowest emissions') can last anything up to 3 minutes in sub-zero conditions.

HDi engines get a lot less GP heating than previous PSA diesels, and will usually start without it, unless really cold. XUDs, on the other hand, really struggle to start quickly and cleanly without all the GPs working.

Good news.

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by Falconar12 »

Hi Marc. Am reporting back on the subject of resettng BSI after windows not opening.
I have not been able to get to the car for a few days and yesterday I went out to it intending to do as you explained. I just tried the windows again
and lo and behold the little buggers were working. A bit of a mystery although there must always be a reason for these things.
Perhaps like me they were getting old and needed a bit of a rest :-D
Anyway a big thank you to you and the other lads who have helped me. Dunno where we would be without bods like you lot. Keep up the good work.

Tony

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Re: peugeot 406 HDI. Igniion on pulls a good battery down to 11.15v

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Allowing the BSI to shut down fully with all the other ECUs over a period of will allow proper reinitialisation when started. Glad it is sorted.