Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

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Doxat
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Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by Doxat »

I will try in short to explain my problem here...

C5 X7 163HP 2010 Tourer

This part (vacuum solenoid) from Throttle control manifold
Diagram A.png
was unattached (because it easily can come off), for some time, so my throttle flap did not move correctly... During that time I had an error P2141 (Exhaust system faulty), but nothing more, and no problems during driving...

When I discovered, and reattached it, some problems started... During longer trips, 200km or more, when become hot... vacuum started to close throttle (readings on Torque app via bluetooth) were 11,5% Throttle, and vacuum - 8 bar or more...and engine start to suffocate, and can not go over 80-85 km/h, but very slowly accelerating...

I will attach some printscreen photos from that period, and finaly, I disconected vacuum tube from Throttle, and closed the tube. Left Solenoid to hold threottle flap in possition, and it stays arround 83%...during faster rides it goes even over 86,5%, but dont go under 83%. Car now go nice, and no MIL light (before that I also had P0488 and P0487 error - Throttle manifold intake problems).

Can someone explain what is going on here...?
Diagram B.png
Diagram C.png
Before, normal readings:Before, vacuum closing throttle (choking):
Diagram D.png
Mix...one from before, and rest from now:
Also, before, in period when I returned solenoid, it started occasionally to give "Danger of DPF clogging", more and more frequently ... but I put some DPF cleaner from Wurth, and after 200km stronger ride it disappeared, and never came back... after that last ride, I closed throttle vacuum, and now its like that... Car is going normaly, no faults, but I am wondering what can go wrong if I leave it like that... and what is going on? (P.S. - My model have single air throttle intake flap)

Thanks in advance
Last edited by GiveMeABreak on 26 Jun 2019, 13:49, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed Images
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Are you talking about the Double Air Doser Capsules - 'C' & 'B'?
Double Air Doser X7 163.PNG
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by Doxat »

No, as I said, on my 2010 model, I have one single air intake... and yes, it is that capsule... my VIN No is: VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

maybe, You can also tell me some more about my car...or were to find it...
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Not on this engine :) You have a Double Air Doser - standard on DW10CTED4 163 engines, which is why I put the diagram up. Now also confirmed with your VIN.

Those last errors make sense considering it was disconnected:

P0487: Air metering valve: Position incorrect (too open)
P0488: Air metering valve: Position incorrect (too closed)

As for the P2141: Control of the air mixer: Short circuit to earth
That will cause:
  • Deactivation of the EGR valve,
  • Deactivation of the kick-down for automatic gearboxes
  • Limitation of performance
  • Opening of the turbo air cooler by-pass unit
  • Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle speed limiter (Need to switch the ignition off and then on, in order to make the function available again)
  • Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle cruise control (Need to switch the ignition off and then on, in order to make the function available again)
  • Deactivation of the tight spot for the cruise control
Some info in the Doser:
Double Air Doser X7 163.PNG
DW10CTED4 Air Dosser A.PNG
(1) Double mixer.
"a" Cold air position repeat sensor.
"b" Capsule controlling the flap for excluding cold air.
"c" Capsule controlling the flap for excluding hot air.
"d" Hot air position repeat sensor.
make: VALEO.
Hall effect sensor.

Role of the double mixer with position repeat sensors:
  • To monitor the inlet pressure so as to optimise the exhaust gas recycling (EGR) rate
  • To prevent air from passing into the inlet circuit when the engine is switched off (cut-off function)
  • To regulate the temperature when the particle filter (FAP) is being regenerated
"a" Cold air position repeat sensor.
"b" Capsule controlling the flap for excluding cold air.
"e" Exclusion flap.
The double mixer consists of 2 pneumatic capsules and 2 position repeat sensors (Cold air circuit and hot air circuit).
The rest position of the exclusion flap "e" for the cold air circuit mixer is open.
The rest position of the exclusion flap "e" for the hot air circuit mixer is closed.
The pneumatic capsules are supplied by the vacuum pump via the proportional electrovalve.
The pneumatic capsules control the opening-closing positions of the mixer exclusion flaps.
The position repeat sensors transmit the positions of the mixer exclusion flaps to the engine ECU.
DW10CTED4 Air Dosser B.PNG
DW10CTED4 Air Dosser C.PNG
Cold air circuit mixer

"F" Exclusion flap position (0 % : Open - 100 % : Closed).
"P" Pressure of the pneumatic mixer ( Mbar).
"f" ± 10 Mbar.
"g" 80 Mbar ( maximum).
DesignationMinimum toleranceNominal valueMaximum toleranceUnit
Pressure: Start of closing-175-150-125Mbar
Pressure: End of closing-475-450-425Mbar
Hot air circuit mixer

"F" Exclusion flap position (0 % : Open - 100 % : Closed).
"P" Pressure of the pneumatic mixer ( Mbar).
"f" ±10 Mbar.
"g" 80 Mbar ( maximum).
DesignationMinimum toleranceNominal valueMaximum toleranceUnit
Pressure: Starts to open at-245-220-195Mbar
Pressure: End of opening-545-520-495Mbar
DW10CTED4 Air Dosser D.PNG
Electrical features

"U" Output voltage (V).
"F" Exclusion flap position (0 % : Open - 100 % : Closed).
"h" Diagnosis zone 2.
"j" ± 0.01V.
"k" Diagnosis zone 1.
"l" Voltage: Low stop.
"m" Voltage: High stop.
DesignationMinimum toleranceNominal valueMaximum toleranceUnit
Supply voltage4,7555,25V
Supply current0,5810mA
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by Doxat »

Houston, we have a problem! :) ... I bought used car, so seems that somebody changed throttle intake from an older/different model... but seems it done a good job, because does not have much problems last 3 years... not too much MIL problems until now... I try it once, it could go cca 215 km/h ... tomorrow I will send you some photos. Untill now, worked fine... :) also during winter time (we here have -10 to -20°C) didn't have any problems ever... hmmmm... need to research it more ... tnx
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I was going to suggest that maybe somebody has fitted one from another model - it talkes a while for the engine ECU to adapt / adjust to the new readings - but it has highlighted the errors as you can see.

The Doser for your car is shown here as item 7.
DW10CTED4 Doser Part.PNG
Part number is 9677515880 Cost in the UK from Citroen is £352.46 :shock: So I would try and source one using this part number. The old part number was 0345F4, before it was replaced with the one above - but you have both in case it helps you source one.
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by Doxat »

Another question... does this car should have magnets (that we know on some models exists) in the fuel cap, or not? (there is a place left for them...)
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by GiveMeABreak »

They are likely not present on this model due to the way the system works on this model:

{A} The engine ECU receives the information on the amount of fuel put in the vehicle, via the BSI, from the following components:
  • Fuel gauge
  • Wheel speed sensors
Depending on the quantity of fuel put in, the engine ECU takes the following actions:
  • To determine the quantity of additive to be injected into the fuel tank
  • To control the fuel additive pump
When the vehicle is stationary (wheel speed sensor information) and the ignition switched off; The BSI memorises the level of fuel present in the tank.

{B}When the ignition is switched on again and the vehicle starts moving, the BSI acquires and compares the level of fuel with the latest value memorised. If the new value is higher, the BSI transmits to the engine ECU the quantity of fuel that has been added. Then the cycle repeats back to {A} again.
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by Doxat »

It is my own photo, from this morning
It is my own photo, from this morning
Here we can see photo of the engine bay... Citroen 163 HP C5...with changed air throttle doseur (egr copy manifold ect. ... it comes under different names)...from "double doseur with InterCooler bypass", to single inlet one (only "cold" intercooled turbo air can go in)...

Purpose of that thing is little bit mystic, and I (we) all should, by my opinion, do some effort to dig in deeper in to it... Main reason for that is, that some of my research lid us to the point, that that flap is used in case of "run away" diesel engine, or we can say SAFETY!... (for ones with cheaper tickets - it is situation when diesel engine continue to work, under extreme heavy revs, because some other fuel enters in - oil from turbo, oil from engine, etc.). It is impossible to stop it, except to close air intake, and possible one of functions of the throttle flap is just this, to when key is turn in shut off position, should close for some time air ingress, that could be sufficient to shut down the engine. There are some other reasons for it, to be mounted: EGR better exploit, better heating at cold start, but all of that is less important... main reason, why I am writing this is SAFETY, ans possible "run away" engine... Probably there is some good reason why producer put it there, and I am wondering is there in software line, that in case of uncontrolled engine revs it really should close air intake!?

At my case, I am also wondering, why it started lately to pump vacuum, and close it after some 200 km passed, when became hot, or some other trigger...it pump vacuum incredibly strong, and try to close it completely, but it came to some 11%, and probably can not go further, because I noticed that flap probably (at least with some Android apps readings) can not open and close completely (0%-100%), but stays inside some 11%-89%...say 10%-90%... in terms open/close

Also, I an wondering, is that flap only possible air inlet to the engine? Or there is possibility to continue working through some other inlet (EGR, Return tube, or so...)?
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by moizeau »

Is Elis about? I think he has the same system and did quite a bit of research into it.
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by GiveMeABreak »

No Pete - he has a similar engine to mine (DW10BTED4, not the CTED4), We don't have the double air doser. I will put up something further in a minute....
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by GiveMeABreak »

DW10CTED4 Air Supply Diag.PNG
Key
"A" Fresh air
"B" Cooled compressed air
"C" Hot compressed air
"D" Air inlet
"E" Exhaust gas
"F" Control vacuum
"G" Electrical links
ReferenceDesignation
"a"Turbocharger Blades Control Diaphragm (With Position Copy Sensor)
(1)Engine ECU
(2)Variable Geometry Turbocharger
(3)Proportional Electrovalve Controlling the Variable Resistance Turbocharger
(4)Air Flowmeter By Mass
(5)Air Filter Unit
(6)Turbocharger Air Cooler
(7)Double Air Mixer With Position Repeat Sensors
(8)Inlet Air Pressure and Temperature Sensor
(9)Turbo Air Cooler By-Pass Control Electrovalve
(10)Air Metering Unit Control Electrovalve
Management of Air Blower Supply

The engine ECU adapts the mass of air entering the engine to the needs relating to the different life phases.
In order to adapt the mass of air entering the engine, the engine ECU acts on the following components:
  • The pneumatic control of the variable geometry of the turbocharger, to vary the turbo air pressure (via an electrovalve)
  • The EGR electrovalve, to vary the flow of air in certain phases of operation
The flowmeter for the air mass measures the flow and the temperature of the air entering the turbocharger and transmits the information to the engine ECU.
The temperature and the pressure of the air entering the air mixer are measured and transmitted to the engine ECU by the inlet air temperature and pressure sensor.

Turbo Air Pressure
General
  • At an equal temperature, the mass of air entering the cylinder increases with the turbo air pressure.
  • The turbo air pressure delivered by the turbocharger increases with the engine speed.
  • The engine ECU has to adapt the quantity of air entering the cylinders to the requirements of the user.
Specificities

The engine ECU is able to manage the variable geometry according to 2 modes of operation:
  • Piloted mode
  • Regulated mode
Piloted mode: The engine ECU commands the variable geometry electrovalve so that it regulates the turbo pressure as a function of a reference position for the variable geometry.
Regulated mode: The engine ECU commands the variable geometry electrovalve so that it regulates the turbo pressure as a function of an absolute reference for air pressure.

N.B. : The change from regulated mode to piloted mode occurs as a function of engine speed and engine load.
The turbo air pressure reference is calculated from the following parameters:
  • Engine speed
  • Engine load
  • Engine coolant temperature
  • Inlet air temperature
Inlet Air Temperature (Turbo air cooler by-pass)

General
At an equal turbo air pressure, the mass of air entering the cylinders decreases when the temperature of the air coming from the turbocharger increases, and vice versa.
In certain operating phases, the engine ECU commands the air cooler by-pass to open, so that then the air entering is not cooled by the air cooler.
The increase in the temperature of the air coming from the turbocharger causes the mass of air entering to diminish, so that the combustion emits less nitrous oxide (NOx).

Specificities
DW10C engine: The by-pass function is not active, the hot air (by-pass) flap is only activated in the event that the cold air (mixer) flap seizes.
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by Doxat »

So, in theorry, I can try using also electrovalve No 9, to control my single air inlet throttle body, because I think that is not problem in the throttle, but for some reason vacuum at certain moments try to close it completely... maybe problem with valve, or ecu, or some other problem that computer detects during ride... as I can see, position sensor info is correct, only for some reason car wants to close it. Hmmmm...

I will do some tests and public results...

But also, did anybody found something connected to the safety related with the flaps and "run away diesel engine" ?
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moizeau
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by moizeau »

Just re-read the post. So to clarify, you have a single doser fitted on a car that should have a double doser? The suffocation happens after you've been driving for a while and everything is nice and warm? There is/was sometimes a message about the DPF clogging which, for a short period, disappeared after you put some cleaner through it?
Could you confirm or correct the points above?
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Re: Citroen C5 X7 Throttle exhaust problems

Post by Doxat »

yes, it was like that... I confirm...

but also... I think that I found a foult ...and also done some damage to other vacuum pipe connector ...