Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

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Andyh
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Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by Andyh »

Hello,
My problem is this.
I have issues with power loss, poor accelaration generally, sometimes car will not get over 60mph on a slight incline, other times is better and will accelarate ok but still not up to previous power level.
EGR has been replaced
DPF filled
Faults cleared and foreced regeneration tried but then came back with different faults, no consistency at all.
Garage has a theory it might be an issue with the wiring or CPU.
Latest faults are;
P111AB Air circuit
P0488 Amixer position to open
P1498 meetering valve incorrect to closed
P1445 Additive adding quantity to high.

Sometimes I also get the "the particulate filter may become blocked" error message.
On occasion there is a harsh chemical smell in the car when there is a loss of power and I try to floor the accelarator (which makes no difference when this happens)

I am hoping someone out there has had a similar issue, not wishing anything bad on anyone just now months trying to get this issue sorted and have a responsive car back (safer too!) and also not to keep throwing money at a problem and still have the same issue, which is where I am now.

Here's hoping you smart people on this forum can help me. I am desperate.

Kind Regards,
Andy
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Hi Andy and welcome.

The clue here is the message about the DPF risk of blockage. What can happen is that if the filter becomes to blocked (anything from 70% up) there is a risk that it will no longer be able to regenerate.

This can happen if the additive has been left too long and not refilled in time (regenerations are ineffective if there is no additive). The additive reduces the combustion of the particles from 600 °C to 450 °C.

If the regeneration is constantly interrupted before it can complete, it will keep trying to do this until at some point it will put the warning light on. Even a forced regeneration may not be able to clear the level of blockage. In this case the filter needs to be cleaned out or replaced. There are chemical cleaners and even Halfords offer this service in the U.K. that can do a light or deep clean.

The other faults I will look into once you post your VIN up.

If the additive has been over filled it may be unable to prime itself, but I’ll know more when I check out the faults specifically.
Andyh
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by Andyh »

Hi Marc,

Thank you for your prompt reply and extremely useful advice.
I will book the car in with my local Halfords this week for their deep clean DPF service.
The car is regularly serviced but it may well be that the DPF level was missed and this has hen caused the underlying issue you described.

The VIN number is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

Would it be worth obtaining the software to read the faults directly (and connecting cable) It might be useful to clear the fault codes once the DPF has been cleaned and see if any are genuine reoccuring fault codes.

Andy
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Give me a while to dig the info out now I have your VIN. Once we have all the fault code symptoms and suspects, it will give us a better idea.

A Lexia kit is useful if you have and are likely to have any PSA vehicles (Citroen, Peugeot & DS), but it is not officially supported and will need a dedicated laptop to to run.

In the meantime I’ll look at the codes, but they generally clear themselves once the underlying issues are rectified. Leave these with me for a bit....
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, sitting comfortably? :-D

Here are the fuller explanations of the fault codes you listed (you had an extra '1' in the first P11AB code)

Now several things to point out - there are likely several issues going on. Dealing with the Air Doser codes first and the Turbo, you can see from these that there is a blockage or failure of the correct pressure / electrovalves to open - so that may indicate a common problem of either the electrovalve electrical harness or there is insufficient vacuum to operate the electrovalves that affect the turbo and the air doser.

Separate to this the P1445 fault code is telling us that basically the DPF is full and needs replacing (or cleaning out) as it can no longer regenerate.

Now as you can see from some of the consequences of the air faults to the electrovalves - specifically the Air Doser on fault P11AB, the downgrade mode will stop EGR function and also prohibit the combustion mode that encourages regeneration. So as it stands, the car will unlikely be able to regenerate whilst the faults are present.

It is therefore possible that as no regeneration has been able to take place, the filter is now blocking up - so it is extremely important to get to the bottom of the underlying fault, because if you just get the DPF cleaned, it will block again very quickly without having any regeneration occur - so I would hold off on the DPF clean until you decide on a course of action. But I strongly suggest you do not use the car if possible as this will only add to the existing DPF blockage that you have.

Lastly, but more importantly, there is a Technical Service Bulletin that covers: "Illumination of the diagnostic warning lamp with or without loss of power - in the presence of one or more of the following fault code(s): P0488, P1498, P11AB". Now you have all of these, which could mean there is a particular cause (and a possible solution) to the problem. Unfortunately, I don't have this particular bulletin - but I am sending you a private message regarding this.
Fault codeP1498
After sales description of the fault codeAir mixer: Position incorrect (Closed too far)
Description of the diagnosticsThe position measured is less than the reference by more than 40 % for 5 seconds
Conditions of activation of the diagnosticsEngine has been running for at least 6 s
Conditions of disappearance of the faultDriving for 5 minutes remaining under an engine speed of 2500 rpm at half load
Down-grade modes if fault present-
Switching on of the warning lamp and/or warning message-
Main customer complaints likelyNoise;
Smoke from the exhaust
Diesel fuel consumption a bit higher
Engine hesitating, cutting out
Lack of power
Suspect areasAir mixer: Air meter restricted; Electrical harness
Air doseur electrovalve: Failure of the solenoid valve; Electrical harness
Position repeat: Air mixer (Electrical harness )
Vacuum circuit: Blockage
Fault codeP0488
After sales description of the fault codeAir mixer: Position incorrect (Closed too far)
Description of the diagnosticsThe position measured is less than the reference by more than 50 % for 6 seconds
Conditions of activation of the diagnosticsEngine running for 6 s
Conditions of disappearance of the faultDriving with the engine hot for 5 min while remaining below an engine speed of 2500 rpm under half-load
Down-grade modes if fault presentOpening of the turbo air cooler by-pass unit
Switching on of the warning lamp and/or warning messageWarning lamp MIL
Main customer complaints likelyNoise
Smoke from the exhaust
Diesel fuel consumption a bit higher
Engine hesitating, cutting out
Lack of power
Suspect areasAir mixer
Electrical harness
Air doseur electrovalve
Air mixer position copy
Vacuum circuit
Fault codeP11AB
After sales description of the fault codeAir circuit: Turbocharging pressure below the maximum threshold
Description of the diagnosticsIncoherence between the position of the turbo electrovalve and the turbo air pressure (Turbo pressure less than 500 mbars for 1,5 s on switching on the ignition)

Incoherence between the position of the turbo electrovalve and the turbo air pressure (Difference between atmospheric pressure and the turbo pressure greater than 50 mbars for 1,5 s, for an engine speed below 2000 rpm)

Incoherence between the position of the turbo electrovalve and the turbo air pressure (Turbo pressure less than atmospheric pressure for 1,5 s, for an engine speed above 2000 rpm)
Conditions of activation of the diagnosticsEngine running
Conditions of disappearance of the faultDriving with engine hot for 5 minutes with several accelerations not under load
Down-grade modes if fault presentDeactivation of the request for regeneration of the particle filter from the diagnostic tool
Deactivation of the EGR function
Cutting of the exhaust heat saver function
Prohibition of the combustion mode that encourages regeneration
Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle speed limiter (Need to switch the ignition off and then on, in order to make the function available again)
Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle cruise control (Need to switch the ignition off and then on, in order to make the function available again)
Switching on of the warning lamp and/or warning messageWarning lamp MIL
Main customer complaints likelyNoise
Smoke from the exhaust
Lack of power
Suspect areasTurbocharging pressure sensor: Sensor drift; Electrical harness;
Turbocharger: Variable geometry seized
Turbocharger solenoid valve: Failure of the solenoid valve; Electrical harness
Turbocharger position copy: Sensor fault; Electrical harness
Fault codeP1445
After sales description of the fault codeAdditive adding: The quantity of additive injected into the particulate emission filter has exceeded the maximum threshold; The particulate emission filter must be changed.
Description of the diagnosticsParticle filter clogged
The volume free in the particle filter is not sufficiently large. Necessary to replace the particle filter at the next service interval
The fault immediately appears
Conditions of activation of the diagnosticsEngine running
Conditions of disappearance of the fault-
Down-grade modes if fault present-
Switching on of the warning lamp and/or warning message-
Main customer complaints likely-
Suspect areasParticle filter
Here's a diagram of the Air Circuit on your engine:
(click to zoom the pictures)
Dw10CTED4 Vacuum C.PNG
Key:
"A" Fresh air
"B" Cooled compressed air
"C" Hot compressed air
"D" Air inlet
"E" Exhaust gas
"F" Control vacuum
"G" Electrical links
ReferenceDesignation
"a"Turbocharger blades control diaphragm (With position copy sensor)
(1)Engine ECU
(2)Variable geometry turbocharger
(3)Proportional electrovalve controlling the variable resistance turbocharger
(4)Air flowmeter by mass
(5)Air filter unit
(6)Turbocharger air cooler
(7)Double air mixer with position repeat sensors
(8)Inlet air pressure and temperature sensor
(9)Turbo air cooler by-pass control electrovalve
(10)Air metering unit control electrovalve
Below is the Vacuum Module:
Dw10CTED4 Vacuum B.PNG
And again showing the electrovalve pipe connections:
Dw10CTED4 Vacuum.PNG
rednose66
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by rednose66 »

I struggled with the DPF on my 2.2 not regenerating. For almost two years. I took it to the local speialist but he wasnt sure what the problem was. Eventually cleared it by replacing the diesel filter! Mine was also giving me a host of errors but since then the DPF ahs worked faultlessly.

Also a good basic bit of software to get is the FAP app off the Amazon app store. There is a free version to make sure it works on your car and a paid version with more capabilities. That and a bluetooth dongle give you good basic info around the DPF.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

We already have the specific codes for this and the diesel filter will not cause these issues or fault codes to be triggered. This is a completely different engine, injection system and layout to the 2.2. These are the official PSA diagnostic reports as they relate to this DW10CTED4 engine.
Andyh
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by Andyh »

Good Morning Marc,

That is indeed quite a lot to take in. At work at the moment so only have a chance to give a cursory look.
Definitely hope that all the fault code will not have to be dealt with by replacement parts!
I will look in more detail this evening.
Once again thank you for all your efforts!
I will get back to you very shortly.

Many Thanks,

Andy
Andyh
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by Andyh »

Good Morning Rednose,

Thank you for replying. It may be a difference engine but I see no harm in changing the filter.
I will check the garage to see if this was done last service!

Many Thanks,

Andy
rednose66
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by rednose66 »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
03 Jun 2019, 08:13
We already have the specific codes for this and the diesel filter will not cause these issues or fault codes to be triggered. This is a completely different engine, injection system and layout to the 2.2. These are the official PSA diagnostic reports as they relate to this DW10CTED4 engine.


Marc understood but my DPF issues gave totally unrelated codes as well which caused confusion with the specialist i went to. After two years of on and off fault finding I spotted a fuel pressure low warning in the FAP log and decided to swap the filter as a precaution. A filter is cheap and worth changing if for no other reason but to ensure your fuel system is clean.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Understand what you are saying, it's just this is a specific combo of specific codes that has occurred for which we know there is a specific issue with. The main issues are with the electrovalves and these are not related to the fuel. If there was a blockage there would be issues relating to fuel rail pressure and injection faults - which there are none.

I'm in the process of getting the TSB for this, so will have a better idea of the problem (I hope) shortly.
Andyh
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by Andyh »

Thanks again to both for your input.
Very much appreciated!
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok Andy, so I have emailed you the specific document and a few others. If it is the Air Mixer (depending on the checks in the document), then the Air Mixer is item 7 below and is part number: 9677515880. Citroen sell this for £352.46 inc. VAT :shock: , so a check for the other components is advised as stated in the TSB.
Andy Mixer.PNG
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moizeau
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by moizeau »

If this has vacuum operated dosers, check the solenoid vacuum connections above the AC compressor. Easily done with an 'actuator test' in Diag, if not available...lots of suck.
Sorry if this info isn't relevant to this model.
Andyh
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Re: Citroen C5 DPF power issue, many trips to garage, please help!

Post by Andyh »

Been quite some time since I have worked on my engine. Do not seem to have the time these days but I think it will be worth having a closer look at the doser and connecting parts myself at the weekend.
Thank you to moizeau for the tip. I will use the lots of suck method!