C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

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marsalek
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C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by marsalek »

Dear colleagues,

I am about to change the auto box oil in my C5 X7 3.0 HDi from 2013. Based on service.citroen.com is the proper oil AW-1 (i.e. JWS 3324). I read here in the forum that for the EURO-4 engines the oil was JWS 3309 and for the EURO-5 the mentioned JWS 3324. Althought this was apparently for the same gearbox.

So what has the Euro-norm to do with the gearbox oil? The newer oil has lower viscosity. Could that be, that the lower-viscosity oil was used to achieve the EURO-5 norm only? In other words, is the oil for the EURO-4 engines even better for the auto box itself?

Why am I asking is, that I bought the oil for the EURO-4 engines but should use the other one. Can I still use the JWS 3309? Is it better for the auto box, or should I buy the JWS 3324?

Thanks for your comments!
Regards, Karel

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by GiveMeABreak »

What is your VIN - Post it here and I'll confirm

marsalek
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by marsalek »

Hi Marc, thank you in advance!
VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

Regards!
Karel

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so you have the AM6-2 automatic gearbox, which is rated Euro 5 Karel, so correct, you need JWS 3324. There are different variations of the AM6 - no doubt in part to meet improved Euro standards, so require different oils.

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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by marsalek »

Hi Marc, thank you for checking!

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EDC5
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by EDC5 »

I have done a lot of research on this, and from what I gathered, both oils are interchangeable, with the latter 3324 primarily used to reduce inefficiencies. I cannot find it now but I found a PowerPoint presentation given by Aisin that said that 3324 and 3309 could be interchanged.

Also, 3309 is a mineral oil whereas I think the 3324 could be synthetic. I've considered upgrading to 3324 myself so it's interesting to see someone who thinks it’s better to 'upgrade' to the older oil :)

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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by marsalek »

Hi EDC5, thanks for the reply. I really suspect that Citroen went to JWS3324 for the only reason to meet the EURO5. This was also the case when they swiched from 5W40 to 5W30 engine oil for the HDi FAP engines (again reducing the friction and lowering the fuel consumption wihtout thinking about the engine itself).

Nevertheless I ordered today 7 liters of JWS3324 (TOTAL FLUIDMATIC MV LV) and together with the JWS3309 (that I already have) I can change the auto box oil three times now :-)

If you happen to find the AISIN PPT charts, this would be a killer for the whole X7 community, mainly in Germany where I live now. The guys here seem to like following rules more happily than thinking.

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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I'll just repeat the warning from PSA for the purposes of having all the info:
CAUTION: The oil type "AW-1" in AT6 and AM6 gearboxes with engine version Euro 5 is specific and cannot be replaced with oil type ""JWS 3309"".
EURO 5 engine: AW-1 oil
EURO 4 engine: JWS 3309 ESSO oil

EDC5 has a Euro 4 version and you have a Euro 5 AM6-2 according to your specifications. :wink:

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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by marsalek »

Hi Marc,
I understand the statement given by Citroen. If they had used the JWS 3309, they'd probably have not met the EURO-5 norm (my private assumption). But there is still the possibility, the insides of the gearbox fitted to Euro5 version are different and require only the JWS-3324. This is what I am trying to find out.

I read the EDC5's posting so, that the AISIN said, the gearbox can run on both oils.

What I found (do not know anything about the reliability) is, that both 3309 and 3324 are fully synthetic.
http://www.sunsoils.com/download/Basic% ... %20ATF.pdf

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Paul-R
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by Paul-R »

I think I understand exactly what you're saying.

Is the only difference between Euro 4 and Euro 5 the type of oil fitted or was there a change internally to the box at the same time which would make fitting the wrong oil damaging? You think that the earlier oil might give better long term protection (because it might be thicker) and the fact that the gearbox is no longer Euro 5 compliant is irrelevant to you.

The PSA warning is only to emphasise that the gearbox will no longer be Euro 5 compliant.

A further thought that I have had since following this is - is there any warning against fitting the later oil into the earlier gearbox?

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by GiveMeABreak »

All I can tell you is that the gearboxes have different part numbers for the different versions.

2222ZS for the AM6 (GK01, GK05)for the DW10BTED4
4F8AA90B-AFF9-49AF-9E3B-8B2F2C53A855.jpeg
... and again DW10BTED4 Euro 6:
63B66EF6-6127-4253-A6F9-6E06AE62EA07.jpeg
DW10CTED4:
EEBF40C1-41A9-4836-8BE4-5926F85CE0EF.jpeg
And another different box for the 3.0
A7F5D78F-6007-437B-BF93-4DD926C088FB.jpeg
And there are more, with different markings depending on engine and build date.

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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by marsalek »

Paul-R wrote:
04 May 2019, 17:58
I think I understand exactly what you're saying.

Is the only difference between Euro 4 and Euro 5 the type of oil fitted or was there a change internally to the box at the same time which would make fitting the wrong oil damaging? You think that the earlier oil might give better long term protection (because it might be thicker) and the fact that the gearbox is no longer Euro 5 compliant is irrelevant to you.

The PSA warning is only to emphasise that the gearbox will no longer be Euro 5 compliant.

A further thought that I have had since following this is - is there any warning against fitting the later oil into the earlier gearbox?


Dear Paul-R,

this is 100% exactly what I mean! Thank you for putting it down in such an understandable way!

Regards Karel

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by GiveMeABreak »

No, there are other differences! The hydraulic blocks have different part numbers and so are the electronic ECUs all different between the various Euro standards and AM6 boxes fitted to different engine versions.

It’s not just a matter of oil or why would they make so many variations of the gearbox, the electronics, the hydraulic blocks and other components. I think we can all speculate, but the fact is, the component parts are different for the different versions of the AM6.

What is important is that the correct standards are met for the specific gearbox. Your choice of course, but you asked about the correct oil for your box and you have the answer. :wink:

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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by Sloppysod »

I'm with Marc regarding what oil goes in what gearbox, especially as you can pay North of £1000 for a 2nd one of unknown history!!
Not a gamble I would take! 😱

marsalek
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Re: C5 X7: JWS 3309 vs. JWS 3324

Post by marsalek »

So guys, thank you for the flourishing discussion!

I want so summarise my standpoint:
There are no clear statements that the gearbox for Euro4 and Euro5 are identical. They have different part numbers in service.citroen.com. So my impression is that the Euro5 boxes may be slightly different eg. the insides of the hydraulic block (different clearances, gaskets etc.) and therefore might require the thinner oil. But there is no clear evidence for that. (different part numbers is not a clear evidence for me).

Based on the oil specifications I came across, the JWS3324 oil is very probably downward compatible with the Euro 4 auto boxes (EDC5 is using it as well), but the JWS3309 (Euro4) oil is not upward compatible with the JS3324 - but maybe only while in the time of writing the specifications of JWS3309 there was no JWS3324 oil. Nevertheless, EDC5 came across the information from AISIN stating the two oils ARE interchangeable.

Under that circumstances I think I'll keep my 4 litre can of JWS3309 oil aside and use only the newly ordered 7 litres of JWS3324 :-) The risk is much higher for me than the ca. 40 Euros that I paid for the 3309 oil.

Have a nice week!
Karel