C2 1.4HDI - Suddenly not turning starter....

[Gregca]

Hello
For those following my previous posts relating to a very slow clutch replacement the sory has suddenly taken an unusual turn (rather not turning).

Yesterday after going for a short test drive, noticed the clutch and brakes need bleeding and also I wanted to put the wheel arch covers and under engine cover back. So jacked up the car and did the bleeding and decided to start the car whilst still jacked to check the underside for leaks etc.

Whilst still jacked up I turned the key, all the lights on the dashboard illuminated, a little click (not the starter solenoid) and nothing else. I tried several times, nothing. I checked the battery voltage, a little low so I charged the battery overnight to full. I tried again today and it is the same, nothing. The only thing I notice is that when I turn the key to start position the dashboard battery indicator flashes.

As previously stated after the clutch change everything went back and the engine fire up on the first turn of the key. it also started several times and the car ran well.

So this problem has come from nowhere and I am baffled??? I do not think it is the starter or solenoid as it worked fine before I jacked the car up...

Any suggestions where I should begin, is there a magic button??

[Steve Walsh]

Flat battery Earth or pos lead loose ??

[wurlycorner]

Starters can fail suddenly like that.
A few basics to start with...
Worn brushes or sticking solenoid - try giving it a few clonks with a heavy spanner (honestly!) and then try it again.If that works, then your starter is on the way out.
If it doesn't, then check all the battery connections and to the starter motor very closely - make sure all are properly clean and tight.
After that, you need to monitor voltage at the starter motor while operating the key, to see if it is sending 12v to the starter or not.

[Gregca]

Good replies. The terminals are clean. Battery fully charged.

How does anyone get near to the starter to give it a few good clonks???

Also to try to measure any voltages?

It is impossibly awkward..................

[Gregca]

Does anyone have a wiring diagram?
Just the starter circuit would be very useful.
At the moment I am shooting in the dark.

I turn the ignition key and hear a relay clicking under the dashboard and and the battery light flashes on the instrument panel. Apart from this silence.

No clicking solenoid.
Battery fully charged.
Terminals not corroded.

If I had a wiring diagram I could trace it through and hopefully eliminate the obvious.

I do not even know which is the 'Starter' fuse.
What does this do?
Would the relay click if this was blown?

I could go out and buy a new starter motor and do the swap....
I would hate to do this and still have a problem!

I am annoyed because I could have changed the starter whilst I had the gearbox off for the clutch renewal

[Steve Walsh]

You can test the starter in situ, Put 12v from battery to small terminal on solenoid attatched to starter motor, Starter should engage. I would also ceck battery earth to engine, Add one with a jump lead if poss....

[Gregca]

As you know it is very awkward to get to the starter and solenoid.
Putting 12V directly to the solenoid, if I can get to it will be one of my last resorts.
This is why I wanted a circuit diagram.
Does anyone know where the wire to the solenoid comes/goes?
It would make it easier to put 12V to it.
Is it the connector* under the bonnet - 2 pin, thick red and black wires - only a guess but i would not want to blow something by feeding 12V and it being wrong.
*3 connectors behind the battery, 2 are multi-pin, this is a 2 pin on the left.

[wurlycorner]

Does anyone have a wiring diagram?

Checked my C2 Haynes and it only has the starter/charging schematic for petrol engines (TU3JP and TU5JP).

[Gregca]

I wonder if at least the main power to the starter is the same on both petrol and diesel engined C2's?
This is the mystery bolt. Note the rusted exposed area, clues. Size 10mm x 71mm.
I replaced the suspension swivel joints and bolts (one snapped on removal). I wonder if this might be long and I think the rust would also be in the middle. I suspect it must have come from somewhere else.

[Steve Walsh]

That looks like a gearbox to engine or gearbox to body bolt.. As for 12v to starter I use a long length of wire, such as 1 out of a 3 core mains cabe, nice and flexible. With a small crocodile clip on the end to clip on solenoid. sort of clip from a multimeter or test lead. make it long enough to reach battery pos and make sure car is in neutral

[moizeau]

You could also use the wire Steve suggested but instaed of connecting it to the battery, connect it to a 12v bulb that is earthed. Does it light up when you try to start the engine?

[ozvtr]

As you know it is very awkward to get to the starter and solenoid.
Putting 12V directly to the solenoid, if I can get to it will be one of my last resorts.
This is why I wanted a circuit diagram.
Does anyone know where the wire to the solenoid comes/goes?
It would make it easier to put 12V to it.
Is it the connector* under the bonnet - 2 pin, thick red and black wires - only a guess but i would not want to blow something by feeding 12V and it being wrong.
*3 connectors behind the battery, 2 are multi-pin, this is a 2 pin on the left.

I have posted an answer to your post in the Citroen section (viewtopic.php?p=855422#p855422) but quick answer; remove the yellow connector on the BSM and short pin2 to the battery positive.

[Gregca]

Update - sorry for the long delay! I got to the bottom of the starter problem. BAD EARTHS!!! The earth strap that runs directly from the battery to the top of the gearbox casing was not good enough.... There was some corrosion, not a lot but enough to stop the juice to the starter. This was a puzzle due to all the other earths still providing connections to the dashboard, lights etc. Also when I tested the starter with additional leads to prove it was working I was bypassing the 'faulty' weak earth without realising this was the culprit. So I did not need to buy a new starter but now have one fitted anyway. I also cleaned up and checked many other items along the way before finding this basic fault. The car has now done over 500 kms since the major clutch, seal change and besides the new problem (sensor??? posted elsewhere) we are running well (touch wood).

[Peter.N.]

It can happen, I have seen connections with no rust or corrosion go completely O/C, I think its due to oxidation, a good scrape of the affected parts and a new bolt generally cures it.

Peter