XANTIA HDi RUNNING ROUGH

[Skull]

VIN VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

1999 HDi (110) Running OK until recently, had 3.5mm high pressure lines burst and patched, then auxiliary belt shreded after only 3 years and 14K and now another Core Plug has corroded (looks like external corrosion) and leaked coolant so I believe this might have led to the engine cutting out a couple of times after squirting coolant onto the fuel pressure sensor, which has a dodgy connector plug Appears to have only lost a small amount of coolant so I don't suspect overheating issues, restarted engine both times after a few minutes and ran OK, it wasn't until after a short journey home I actually discovered this leak.

Skull's - rusty one

Skull's - shiny one

When I knocked the old Core Plug out that was roughly the coolant level so again I doubt any overheating has occured. So after changing the Core Plug in the cylinder head, I bled the fuel rail, topped up the coolant (2 litres), the engine started up OK and idled nicely but as it warmed up I noticed when reving engine it sounded a little more gruff than normal and didn't want to rev beyond 3K.

I disconnected the injector plugs in turn to check the effect on the engine running, the engine stalled on No.2 and had minimal effect on No.4

I then cracked off the injector fuel feed pipes carefully to eliminate any air locks, the engine stalled on No.2 and No.4

The engine check light was now on so stopped engine and disconnected the vehicle battery for 30 minutes to re-set.
Re-started the engine and continued to warm engine which was still running a bit gruff.

Coolant Temperature and level warning light was flashing STOP and O warning - I thought the cooling fans would have been operating at this stage ( ) and went down a rabbit hole thinking the fans weren't working, I checked under bonnet fuse box F5 (5 amp) was OK so I ended up proving the cooling fan motor which on the HDi involves disconnecting this blue plug on the thermostat housing which I believe doubles up as a temperature sender for the 'bitron' (if Air Con is fitted) via the Air Con system in the ECU.

Skull's - Thermostat Housing

So when I unplugged the blue sensor plug, initially just the passenger side cooling fan started running high speed, my Haynes manual covers the 2.0 HDi as well as other previous models and is quite dis-jointed.

Pin 1 5v
Pin 2 Neg
Pin 3 Neg

I shorted Pin 1 and 2 - no effect
I shorted Pin 1 and 3 - both cooling fans ran low speed

I reconnected the blue plug and the engine started running a lot poorer after about 5 seconds both fans slowed and stopped at the same rate.

So the fan motors do work, coming on around 95 degree C on the vehicle gauge (I'm still in the rabbit hole though).

Today I had a theory that the the coolant system had either an air lock (causing the coolant level warning light) or the level had dropped overnight so I made up a higher header (no coolant bleed nipples on HDi) and ran the engine, it took almost a further 1.5 Litres but no warning lights today. I think the coolant system is now full and free of air-locks.

The cooling fans came on after a very long warming time with heavy exhaust smoke due the engine running poorly, I think it's taking so long to warm up as it doesn't sound like it's firing on all cylinders.

I feel like after re-reading the Haynes manual I might have knackered the ECU by shorting the temperature sensor wiring.

My only other thought is that the timing belt (I changed in 2021 (edited) so covered 25k in just under 5 years) may have managed to jump a tooth or two with the current symptoms but it drove home fine ?

Any thoughts / suggestions from the forum ?

[mickthemaverick]

I assume your 2001 cam belt change was a misprint Gary and it was 2021? If it is still running rough I'd go for an easy trial and put a dose of injector cleaner through it first. Also line the engine up at the timing marks and see how it looks v how it was when you did the belt, if you can remember of course

[Skull]

Cheers Mick

Yes it was 2021 [edit]…your maths is good

2001 was my first Citroen (I think)

That’s about all I’m going to do look at the timing marks, although as I say it drove home fine …could be one of those coincidence faults that just materialises to mess with my head

[Skull]

Skull's - Timing check

Camshaft 8mm pin hole slightly obscured by shadow in the photo.

With the flywheel locked correctly via the 8mm hole in the engine block flange (obscured behind the Starter Motor) there is a small amount of error in the cam timing but I don't think that would account for the rough running.

The Camshaft Sprocket does allow a small amount of fine tuning so I will probably try to get that aligned properly ......

[Skull]

Spoiler: show

83 views in 5 days, the forum is in hibernation ...

Checking the engine timing, I only removed the upper timing belt cover and loosened the intermidiate cover as the belt was going to be re-used - I marked the belt and camshaft sproket in their current position.

Skull's - belt and cam marked

The 3 outer camshaft bolts are in slots, when slackened it only allows the teeth to mesh accurately when installing, so in order to remove any error it was necessary to secure the cambelt with hosepipe wedged in the gaps at the fuel pump and crankshaft BEFORE undoing the cambelt tensioner to stop it jumping out of the other sprockets.

Skull's - cambelt secured with hosepipe

Once the cambelt tensioner is slackened it allowed me to lift the belt away from JUST the camshaft sprocket and rotate the camshaft slightly to allow the cam locking pin (8mm drill bit in my case) to engage, then slide the belt back on, minimising any slack on the top belt run (temporarily slacken the 3 outer camshaft bolts if necessary) and then re-tension and lock the tensioner.

Skull's - Error removed

That small amount of misalignment equated to one tooth so at some stage it has jumped a tooth

The mystery is that the engine drove home fine after it had cut out the last time, all I replaced was the corroded core plug but the engine didn't run well on re-assemly.

Although I didn't initially think the small error in the camshaft timing would account for the rough running, having checked the timing belt and revealing that error was a tooth I excitedly re-assembled everything in the hope I had solved the issue.

Remember to remove the flywheel locking pin .... Started engine it ran a bit smoother but I now had a whining belt noise

Worst still - I still have a heavily smokey exhaust .... something isn't right

So I stripped the top belt cover off again and played around with the belt tensioner, I've had to release the tension to reduce the whine but the belt is now running slacker than ideal.

New Tensioner required if the mystery is solved on Thursday ...I've booked it into my local MoT garage for a diagnostics session

That will decide the car's future ....

[Skull]

Garage said it was a faulty injector on No.4 - so now having seen the price of a new one I'm going to get a 2nd hand one once I've pulled my one out, if that sorts the problem I will then get a new cambelt tensioner ...

When I tested the resistance on the injectors the other day they all read 9 Ohms so thought that was acceptable.

When I disconnected the wiring plugs the other day only No.2 cut out, but in my head I thought that the ones cutting out the engine must be the good ones keeping the engine running (logical ...to me anyway )

Excited as I've never changed an injector before ....

[Skull]

Injector extracted - no special tools needed I was a bit worried after seeing lots of garages posting horror videos.

I wanted to get it out before ordering one .. new @ £200+ re-manufactured @ £110+ used @ £25+

Skull's - Bad ?

Haynes says I need a new copper washer upper seal injector clamp retaining nut and high-pressure fuel pipe for each removed injector

[Skull]

Garage said it was a faulty injector on No.4 …..

No.4 changed with a second hand injector now she won’t start at all

Which kind of indicates to me that No.4 was a good one

When I disconnected the wiring plugs the other day only No.2 cut out, but in my head I thought that the ones cutting out the engine must be the good ones keeping the engine running (logical ...to me anyway )

I also asked the mechanic whether the injectors needed coding He said he didn’t think they would

[mickthemaverick]

You are numbering the cylinders from the gearbox end I assume Gary? I have a feeling that the injector will need coding but hopefully Alasdair or Jim will confirm that, or of course anyone else that knows

[Skull]

Yes Mick from the gearbox end 1-2-3-4 (French) …… awaiting further confirmation about coding requirements….

[Skull]

I've only tried one of the second-hand injectors that I took a punt on off e-bay and the engine refused to start

I've now taken No.1 (suspect) and No.4 (believed to be good ) to a local engineering firm for testing @ £20 +vat per injector.
Breedon & Gell can be contacted on:

Phone: 01325 381088 Email: [email protected]

Address: Back Haughton Road, Off Westgarth Terrace, Darlington, Co Durham. DL1 2PH United Kingdom

Probably should have done this before the e-bay purchase

They inspected my injectors and stated that the Xantia HDi injectors do not need coding and also that because the body/connectors were in good condition, it would probably be cheaper to exchange my old injectors for re-manufactured Bosch ones, on an exchange basis, rather than have my old ones re-built in their workshop.

Prices to follow if required pending test results

[Skull]

Well I hope to hear from the injector company today as I was ‘off-grid’ yesterday on a hike in the Lake District and my last HEWITT in the Yorkshire Dales, the weekend allowed some online price research and have found some suitable re-manufactured injectors on e-bay for £75 without an exchange surcharge.

Various injector part numbers:
Citroen 1980 CK
Citroen 1980 93
Bosch 9 635 196 580
Bosch 0 445 110 008
All seem to be superseded by the latest injector code
Bosch 0445110044

Plus new parts required:
Seal Citroen 1981 43 > 1981 96 > 1981 45 (copper washer)
Gasket Citroen 1982 60 (plastic engine protector)

[Skull]

Well not the news I was expecting - both the injectors have tested 'FAULTY'

Remember I thought Injector 4 was a good one (best of the two apparantely )

Skull's -

Skull's -

High return rate
Low idle rate

Anyone think those results are still workable (The red pen is the pass mark)

I'm going to have a look at a few options tomorrow to eliminate other possibilities and try and get some 'codes' read via this LED decoder I found on you tube:

Xantia decoder

If I can't find anything else wrong they can get me on an exchange basis, new injectors for £135 +vat +£15 carriage (from Bosch in Germany).

Descisions ...descisions ...to be made on a car I was looking to sell around New Year ...might be better off giving it away now

[Skull]

Running with the original injectors re-fitted ...

HDi ROUGH


SMOKER

[mickthemaverick]

Oh dear, this is beginning to look expensive!!