C4 Grand Picasso EGS: Clutch replacement

[uzigon]

It has come time to replace the clutch assembly in my C4 Picasso (230,000 km). The winter wasn't kind to her, the clutch starting really wearing after having it stuck in a farm field and rocking the car back and forth between reverse and forward gear to break free - since then it had been grinding whenever building inertia, like stopping at roundabouts and hill starts. A few weeks ago we had part of our road wash out along a hilly section and the car has been struggling to climb ever since. Now the clutch appears to be slipping (strange rubbing/whirring noise from gearbox area) and cutting out. There is likely enough life left on the plate to get it to a shop but not back up the hill, which is about a 200 meter climb from the main road. I've been calling around and no shop within 50 km wants to do the work saying it is "more trouble than it's worth" which I can believe after researching about these vehicles and their piloted manual gearboxes.

Now I am capable and willing to take this job on myself, and since it's my only car I don't really have much choice in the matter if no one else will. I have most of the tools already apart from the diagnostics software to depressurise/re-pressurise, program the gear grid, etc, etc. I was hoping some guidance from the community might prove to be valuable.

Primary questions: What all do I need for EasyDiagnostics? Do I need the tool, the Diagbox software and the PSA license (which I priced at around 300 euros!) does this tool and software work with tablets or laptops? Windows 10? Linux? I've never need to use a computer so much to work on a car before owning a Citroen. LOL! And most importantly can I carry out the servicing and reprogramming using Diagbox? I have seen more reference to Lexia for carrying out this procedure.

Secondary line of questioning: What all should I replace while I am performing this job? I want to replace the DMF, clutch components, and the drop out cylinder. I seen mention of a "electronic clutch cylinder ECP" is this another part that I should have ready to install? I also plan to replace the fluid in the gearbox to maybe make it easier to remove, would this be a good idea or is it risky business if there aren't any complaints coming from the gears? And if so should I opt for a higher grade gear oil? (performance 75w-80 for larger gearboxes) due to the age of the gearbox.

I would not be considering doing this job if I didn't find such a supportive community. These cars are genuinely interesting for their quirkiness and stubbornness, and if I can keep this one running I think there is reward in that alone.

Cheers!

[uzigon]

I think I was able to answer most of my questions from above. This job has turned into a bit of nightmare. Nearly a month in, stranded up the country trying to simply remove the gearbox.

**SEIZED SUBFRAME BOLT**

Right now we are stuck trying to remove one of the subframe bolts. I have learned about these notorious captive bolts that are held with dainty pieces of sheet metal.

I am at the point where I can see enough of the bolt threads between the subframe and the chasis that I am tempted to cut it out. But what will I be able to do in order to refit the subframe?

Any advice before I get out the grinder?

[uzigon]

Seems to be crickets on this post, is it just the nature of the EGS?

I have managed to get the sub-frame out but cutting the bolts and replacing with matching hardware. The gearbox has been removed, cleaned, new clutch kit installed and everything buttoned back together. I ran DiagBox and re-pressurised a bled the system.

Now more issues maybe someone out there can offer a little bit of advice.

The car will not turn over, at first it did but then it sputtered and died. I found that the fuel filter needed priming. Attempted again, ran choppy for a sec, sputtered and died. Battery level dropped too low had to remove to charge for the night. Attempted starting again this morning and the starter was strong but the motor would not start, some white misty smoke coming from below DPF area. Maybe just from cleaning agents? The battery died again and I need to charge.

I will attempt BSI reset next then reprogramming of the gear grid (as it failed trying to engage reverse), check fuel rail sensor and crank sensor.

If I can get anyone listening in I can get some more fault codes from the car, I just need to learn how to clear the current faults.

I'm out of time and money on this one already - I'll be riding my thumb into town until I can sort this out, since I need to return to work.

[wurlycorner]

Sorry you've not had much response on this thread and well done for what you've achieved so far.
After the non-start, has it logged any fault codes?

[uzigon]

Hey! Thanks for stopping by.

I'm still learning how to use Diagbox but these are what I have logged atm, now I haven't attempted a 'fault reset' to see if these are new faults, I know a couple of them are persistent like glow plug so I will leave that out.

I should mention that I had forgotten to plug a power cable back in when I first tried to run Diagbox and it couldn't find Power steering, ABS or Gearbox ECUs. I plugged it in and was able to communicate with everybody.

Here's what I have written down at the moment, but again I am new to Diagbox and these could very well be old:

F5FF Unexpected re-initialise fault from BSI
P1490 Regen not complete DPF (don't think this is new)
P1728 CAN communications
P0489 EGR Valve position (this might be persistent, I replaced the EGR with a cheap Chinese knockoff during this clutch repair)
U1208 Faulty info
U1219 Fault auto release parking brake
C1178 Power steeing ECU

[wurlycorner]

Hi
Given what you've said and those codes, I agree - definitely worth clearing the fault codes and running through a full BSi reset as the next step.

[uzigon]

I've done the BSI reset, cleared the fault codes using Diagbox, then attempted to restart to no avail - no new codes reappeared, so I think the bulk of those are from when I had forgotten to plug the connector in for the ABS/Gearbox ECUs, et al.

The motor is cranking but still not starting, the battery had gotten quite weak since starting this task over a month ago and I have to keep removing it to charge it in the shed. I have no access to another vehicle to boost off of.

I will proceed to check cam and crank sensors since these seem to be silent culprits, however the motor has gone from running for a moment to no running at all, so I feel like the condition of the issue has changed.

Also I am starting to wonder if the battery has just gotten too weak and can't supply enough amperage to power everything back on. After charging for several hours I only get a few cranks in before the vehicle slips in "Economy Mode" again.

[RichardW]

You need to look in the live data and see if the ECU can see the engine turning over, there is cam / crank synchronisation, and the fuel rail pressure is above 180bar. Is there an EGR fault now? If this sticks wide open it can be enough to stop it starting.

[uzigon]

While I am waiting for the battery to charge I started pulling the engine bay apart again to check sensors, physically the crank sensor seems fine. I was on my way to the fuel rail sensor when I had to remove the fuel filter, the filter was quite light and as I was removing it fuel was spilling out of a small nozzle at the box of my filter - all over my freshly rebuilt gearbox. :-/
*I figured this out, I had opened the bleed valve not knowing it connected to this*

When I got to squeeze the primer bulb with the filter removed I get no fuel from either of the lines, just a gurgling sound. Does this seem abnormal? Or does it need to be sealed up with the filter installed the 'suck' the diesel from the tank? I spent several minutes pumping the primer bulb to no avail.

I'm thinking maybe a fuelling issue, it has been sitting on blocks with the filter removed (and sitting indoors) for a month and half.

[PaulC5]

That nozzle is likely the filter drain used to drain any water at services. On the top of the filter above this nozzle there will be a bit where possibly an allen key can be used to slacken the drain plug and tighten it - see if this is loose or it might be tight but the drain plug might be leaking. If it was leaking when trying to start then likely the fuel lines will have drained back to the tank preventing starting.

[uzigon]

How much effort should normally be expended with the primer bulb? I've squeezed it for yonks and still no fuel coming out of the line. I haven't been able to detect any where the diesel is leaking.

[myglaren]

Could be that the one way valve in the primer bulb has failed.

[uzigon]

I primed it again for quite a spell, until it got kind of tight but I could still squeeze it. With the freshly charged battery I was able to get it to turn over, it sputtered a bit, then started running fine for a few seconds and then it quit on me, I checked the primer bulb it was still the same state. I hooked up my roadside scanner and on the FRP (fuel rail pressure, I think) I was getting 420-650 kPa range reading with the ignition in the on position, and then on cranking and turnover it spiked to about 12000 and then to 31000 right before it cut out. I'm actually not even sure what value I'm looking for here, I used to monitor it during long drives but I couldn't be arse to write it down at the time.

Should there be any amount of pressure on the FRP when the ignition is switched to on?

[uzigon]

The battery is getting weaker and weaker each time, I don't have much power available for running diagnostics, but I will charge it up again and try to just to run Diagbox and see what I can figure out. Unfortunately I am out of time, I have been away from work since St Paddy's Day, and the big rally is in town and they need me at the shop, so I'll be out there with my thumb the next two days and the Tuesday I can dive back into old Betsy the Picasso.

Is there a chance that the battery is just too s**t?

It looks like it's from 2017 and it just got put through a brutal winter. I've heard that the alternator typically powers some other systems before it starts charging the battery.

[wurlycorner]

If you do get it to start then I would have thought the battery isn't the cause tbh - if the battery holds some charge (clearly it does) then once the engine is running it should stay running.
But modern cars are vey fussy if the batteries are knackered, so one never knows...
Runnig diagbox and monitoring live data from the engine ECU I do think is the best way forward for now - unless you fancy slinging a new battery at it anyway (8 years is a good age for one).