C5 steering rack

[MattBLancs]

Well I just returned from the steering specialist in Wakefield and they did a cracking job. Rack refurbed and resealed and in remarkable time. Was a joy to cruise the 4h home this evening. Too bad the engine light came on in the final hour.... I wonder how long I can resist moving the C5 on..

Ah, that is other question I meant to ask:

Was your dead rack taken as an exchange unit, or have you it to hand? I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one to investigate, and a dead one would be best for that.

[aerodynamica]

Well I just returned from the steering specialist in Wakefield and they did a cracking job. Rack refurbed and resealed and in remarkable time. Was a joy to cruise the 4h home this evening. Too bad the engine light came on in the final hour.... I wonder how long I can resist moving the C5 on..

Ah, that is other question I meant to ask:

Was your dead rack taken as an exchange unit, or have you it to hand? I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one to investigate, and a dead one would be best for that.

Hi Matt, sorry they actually refurb the rack on site - replaced the end part of the return pipe as well by joining on a non corroded end from a Berlingo - have the old pipe end as a souvenir - quite impressive turn around really. And this morning... no leaks!

[MattBLancs]

Well I just returned from the steering specialist in Wakefield and they did a cracking job. Rack refurbed and resealed and in remarkable time. Was a joy to cruise the 4h home this evening. Too bad the engine light came on in the final hour.... I wonder how long I can resist moving the C5 on..

Ah, that is other question I meant to ask:

Was your dead rack taken as an exchange unit, or have you it to hand? I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one to investigate, and a dead one would be best for that.

Hi Matt, sorry they actually refurb the rack on site - replaced the end part of the return pipe as well by joining on a non corroded end from a Berlingo - have the old pipe end as a souvenir - quite impressive turn around really. And this morning... no leaks!

Ah ok, not a problem.

Berlingo pipe donor option sounds intriguing, and joining the pipes solved. Good news

[aerodynamica]

Ah, that is other question I meant to ask:

Was your dead rack taken as an exchange unit, or have you it to hand? I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one to investigate, and a dead one would be best for that.

Hi Matt, sorry they actually refurb the rack on site - replaced the end part of the return pipe as well by joining on a non corroded end from a Berlingo - have the old pipe end as a souvenir - quite impressive turn around really. And this morning... no leaks!

Ah ok, not a problem.

Berlingo pipe donor option sounds intriguing, and joining the pipes solved. Good news

Yea, I wasn't expecting them to do that but at the start they explained how they'd originally purchased all of Citroen's spare pipes and that now all were gone.. The problem appears to be the alloy return pipe corrodes with the steel clamping plate and makes it difficult to remove without damage. Initially I wondered if the leak was actually from the pipe itself but they confirmed it was leaking from the usual place at the shaft seal.

He wasn't too impressed with the CV gaiter covering the pinion valve and going through the footwell.. "because it didn't work" and he was right! I would say though that I still believe the CV boot cover actually does help protect the rusting shaft but that mine was kind of the exception not the rule. Others have had success with a rubber boot protecting it. My plan is to periodically reapply grease to the shaft and seal as well as fitting another CV boot in the future.
Good luck on finding an old steering rack - I might also be on the search for one for the future - want to have a spare refurb on the ready..

[MattBLancs]

Yea, I wasn't expecting them to do that but at the start they explained how they'd originally purchased all of Citroen's spare pipes and that now all were gone.. The problem appears to be the alloy return pipe corrodes with the steel clamping plate and makes it difficult to remove without damage. Initially I wondered if the leak was actually from the pipe itself but they confirmed it was leaking from the usual place at the shaft seal.

He wasn't too impressed with the CV gaiter covering the pinion valve and going through the footwell.. "because it didn't work" and he was right! I would say though that I still believe the CV boot cover actually does help protect the rusting shaft but that mine was kind of the exception not the rule. Others have had success with a rubber boot protecting it. My plan is to periodically reapply grease to the shaft and seal as well as fitting another CV boot in the future.
Good luck on finding an old steering rack - I might also be on the search for one for the future - want to have a spare refurb on the ready..

Ha ha, not sure why that amused me, but sounds like a typical Yorkshire attitude, very "black and white" with any judgment, it's either "alright" or "what's this bloody rubbish?"

Anyway, I'm in agreement with you, it can do no harm and if keeps worst of the weather off the Easy-rust steel shaft then seems worthwhile. Plan to add one to mine at some point, just grease at present.



Yes, was one listed maybe 12 months ago for £75, should have snapped it up. Might contact one of the many breakers with an X7 - though abandoned idea that last time as eye watering prices being quoted for the bits I'd enquired about.

[aerodynamica]

Ha, might just be! They're good guys though and they really know their onions.

Here's the original return pipe end:

Can see here the pitting where it reacts to the steel nearby

He told me this doesn't tend to leak in itself it's when they get removed that all hell breaks loose

[KennyW]

Graeme,

Why not get a pipe made from stainless steel as replacement ? You have an original so the sizes are there.

Obviously cost is a factor, or visit a company which specialises in Hydraulic hoses. They may be able to put something together from their parts they have available.

Kenny

[bobins]

Steering Rack Aficionados - ASSEMBLE !

Righty-ho. Have a close look at the pipe end in the pictures. The 'O'-ring is intact, the bit of pipe that actually goes into the pinion shaft housing is in perfect condition. It's only the bit that's external to the shaft housing and that doesn't come into contact with LDS / Fluide DA that's damaged. So why does it leak ? I've mentioned before, and I'm still of the opinion that the swaged part of the pipe is there to make a fluid seal against the pinion housing and that's why these pipes can only really be considered single use - when they're tightened down onto their mating face the swaged bit crushes against the pinion housing mating face.
It might be possible to bodge/provide another sealing face for the pipe by cutting a tiddly litle washer out of, say, a Coke can and using that to sit between the pinion housing mating face and the swaged part of the pipe.

[aerodynamica]

Graeme,

Why not get a pipe made from stainless steel as replacement ? You have an original so the sizes are there.

Obviously cost is a factor, or visit a company which specialises in Hydraulic hoses. They may be able to put something together from their parts they have available.

Kenny

Cost for sure Kenny! I just wouldn't consider it worth it - this car really makes you work.

[aerodynamica]

Steering Rack Aficionados - ASSEMBLE !

Righty-ho. Have a close look at the pipe end in the pictures. The 'O'-ring is intact, the bit of pipe that actually goes into the pinion shaft housing is in perfect condition. It's only the bit that's external to the shaft housing and that doesn't come into contact with LDS / Fluide DA that's damaged. So why does it leak ? I've mentioned before, and I'm still of the opinion that the swaged part of the pipe is there to make a fluid seal against the pinion housing and that's why these pipes can only really be considered single use - when they're tightened down onto their mating face the swaged bit crushes against the pinion housing mating face.
It might be possible to bodge/provide another sealing face for the pipe by cutting a tiddly litle washer out of, say, a Coke can and using that to sit between the pinion housing mating face and the swaged part of the pipe.

Y'know, you might be right. I question why it's made from alloy in the first place but that would be the ideal material for forming against the pinion valve machined face.

A few years ago I fitted new strut tops to my Xantia and found that one of the two feed pipes would not seal against the inner taper of the pipe bore. Unlike the small diameter hydraulic pipe of all the LHM systems, the Hydractive pipes are a metal contact fit and I had obviously matched a pipe & strut top that didn't fit.. I had retightened that pipe union so many times that the 17mm union nut began to get longitudinal cracks. I finally had to source a full new pipe and it was almost as hard to find as a C5 part.... but not quite

[MattBLancs]

Steering Rack Aficionados - ASSEMBLE !

Righty-ho. Have a close look at the pipe end in the pictures. The 'O'-ring is intact, the bit of pipe that actually goes into the pinion shaft housing is in perfect condition. It's only the bit that's external to the shaft housing and that doesn't come into contact with LDS / Fluide DA that's damaged. So why does it leak ? I've mentioned before, and I'm still of the opinion that the swaged part of the pipe is there to make a fluid seal against the pinion housing and that's why these pipes can only really be considered single use - when they're tightened down onto their mating face the swaged bit crushes against the pinion housing mating face.
It might be possible to bodge/provide another sealing face for the pipe by cutting a tiddly litle washer out of, say, a Coke can and using that to sit between the pinion housing mating face and the swaged part of the pipe.

Y'know, you might be right. I question why it's made from alloy in the first place but that would be the ideal material for forming against the pinion valve machined face.

In almost all instances it is because it's the cheapest thing that'll do the job satisfactorily I can't at present think why steel wouldn't do - but would guess it's the tube needing to be formed into the swage/flange that swings it towards aluminium.

I'm not sure, or else I don't understand, why if the soft aluminium pipe flange deforming to the face of the rack connection was to form the sealing function, why bother adding an O-ring groove?

Galvanic corrosion seems to be what is going on - needs three things to occur:
Two dissimilar metals with greater than 0.57?? Volts between them (determined from the materials in question, galvanic series) e.g steel clamp and aluminium pipe.
Electrically connection between the two e.g. bolted together in this case.
And an electrolyte. E.g. salty water thrown up from the road.

Thank you for the picture, looks a simple enough form to recreate, I'm more in favour of leaving the rack connection as designed and creating a way of a new pipe connection after that (i.e. a rack connection to JIC4 adapter as I pondered earlier)

P.s. are we "Aficionados" or just "steering rack afflicted"

[Jay-Bruce]

... the steering rack pipes pipes/hoses, is that they go into the rack's rotary valve with a pinch bolt holding on a collar, the hardpipe sticking out of the collar forms a spigot which has a groove in it for an o-ring that forms the seal, so they shouldn't be too hard to extricate, one bolt and the pipe end comes off the rack. From what I've gathered what tends to happen is that the ends get distorted during the removal refitting to change the rack.

@bobins kindly sent me some parts to measure up, a rack rotary valve housing and all the pipework. Having studied that, what I'm planning on doing is drilling out the rack's port, tapping it to 1/4" NPT (National Pipe Thread), putting a 1/4" NPT male x JIC 4 nipple on there, then looking at the pump, doing something similar, and getting a conventional 1/4" JIC4 hydraulic hose crimped up.

Jay, reading your investigations with interest.

One design question for you:

To my knowledge, there's no issue in the sealing arrangement between hard pipes and rack (spigot with O-ring, pinch bolt) given this, I can't help but wonder if tapping a thread for an NPT connection into this alloy housing us the best approach.

To cut that thread, it'll need the rack disassembling so that any swarf can be removed from inside.

You could avoid the need for this if we were to either turn a piece with spigot matching the normal arrangement for that rack end, and I guess JIC4 connection the other. Then your plan as is from there in.

Would need a plate cutting, engaging with the spigot and pinned by pinch bolt, but that just needs a grove in my proposed fitting and matching slot in plate.

Just thinking aloud.

Where are we will the rusting shaft: speed sleeves bonded in place with belzona was last I read??

Matt

Being honest with you, I've only done a little bit more than thinking aloud and seeing what would fit the ports on the rack, but not necessarily looking at the methodology WRT the steering rack side of things. I've simply not had time available that coincided with availability to groundwork on our X7 on jobs that could immobilize it for a long time should they go wrong such as the fore-to-aft suspension pipe replacement with my bespoke "LDS compatible" fittings.

WRT the swarf, I was thinking of using grease or cutting paste such as trufolex to lubricate the cut and contain the swarf, however I admit that doesn't completely prevent swarf entering the hydraulic port, but the odds are stacked against that happening. I've also been wondering if it is even possible to thread the port with the rack on the car? I'm wondering if it might be better to remove the rack entirely?

Belzona is optional on the pinion shaft, the speedi sleeve should seat over a mildly pitted shaft, but in the case that pitting is more severe, it is better to have something like belxona behind the sleeve because of the thinness of the material. Given we have identified a reliable provider who has delighted a couple of membership with a good turn key solution to the steering shaft issue, I don't feel that anything I could offer as a workaround is really needed, and as such isn't a priority for me. But that is not to say I've given up on doing anything for the steering, as I am aware that, I'm now thinking in hindsight that a better solution would be to either go with banjo bolt style fittings at the pinion house ports, rather than JIC, or to make an adapter piece that bolts in directly, and has threaded ports/nipples in it for a more conventional hydraulic fitting. But again, I need to nail the suspension pipework before moving onto steering.

[MattBLancs]

No problem being busy Jay, know the feeling!

[MattBLancs]

2 new lip seals (R23 20x30x5) arrived yesterday, £4.03 delivered off eBay. Will keep them "in stock" until I have an LDS puddle

[Peter.N.]

The racks on both mine are leaking, one since I had it but they have always passed the MOT and I think the oiliness has prevented the pipes from corroding.

Peter