C5 ride

[white exec]

Thanks for the VIN.

I need a second pair of eyes on this one...

Under that VIN, the car is listed as
C5II 5dr saloon 1.0 HDi 138 BVM6 RP 10314 (= 3Feb2005)
Engine type would be RHF.

SB Characteristics lists the car as non-Hydractive,
but all of the Private Cars booklets (2000...2005) only show C5 as Hydractive 3; no mention of non-HA.
IFHS sphere catalogue also only lists C5 II as HA3 and HA3+.

Parts, under that VIN, show the four corner spheres (and no centre ones) as
FF - 385cc/57bar
RR - 385cc/31bar (for saloon)
which are the same corner sphere specs shown in the booklets for Hydractive.

I would have thought that a non-HA car cannot run on the same corner spheres as a HA one, or the car would be limited to a very firm normal ride . . . which is actually Aneesh's complaint.

Did I miss something here?
More minds, please!

EDIT
This was misleading info on my part.
See Aneesh's post below, and what follows.
Apologies.

[Peter.N.]

Quite right Chris. The CX and BX only had the corner spheres but they were much softer than the hydractive ones. You can tell by the size of the orifice. Corner spheres from a hydractive would give a very hard ride indeed.

Peter

[aneesh84]

Thanks for the VIN.

I need a second pair of eyes on this one...

Under that VIN, the car is listed as
C5II 5dr saloon 1.0 HDi 138 BVM6 RP 10314 (= 3Feb2005)
Engine type would be RHF.

SB Characteristics lists the car as non-Hydractive,
but all of the Private Cars booklets (2000...2005) only show C5 as Hydractive 3; no mention of non-HA.
IFHS sphere catalogue also only lists C5 II as HA3 and HA3+.

Parts, under that VIN, show the four corner spheres (and no centre ones) as
FF - 385cc/57bar
RR - 385cc/31bar (for saloon)
which are the same corner sphere specs shown in the booklets for Hydractive.

I would have thought that a non-HA car cannot run on the same corner spheres as a HA one, or the car would be limited to a very firm normal ride . . . which is actually Aneesh's complaint.

Did I miss something here?
More minds, please!

Thank you for the analysis.

As per my understanding HA3 and Non-Hydractive (A pre C5 era terminology) are one and the same thing: both mean two sphere on each axle without a central sphere.

HA3+ means having a central sphere in addition to the two side spheres which was also called Hydractive (in pre C5 Cars)

Based on the OEM references I can see here: tinyurl.com/5beak83k



The Hydractive 3 rear has the 31 bar listed sphere.

The Hydractive 3+ rear has a 25 bar listed sphere.


I have noticed that some aftermarket sphere manufacturers supply the same 31 bar for both HA3 and HA3+ to reduce inventory but that is not the OEM specs. Even if you check the IFHS catalogue there are two different 25 and 31 bar spheres for the two versions. (https://shate-m.by/static/Catalogs/IFHS ... _11_LR.pdf)

However what intrigues me is that Xantia non-hydractive also has 30 bars specified with a larger volume of sphere. The C5 being a heavier car and a smaller sphere volume, should the ideal pressure not have been higher! Which is why I was toying with the idea of a 44 bar Estate sphere. But yes a too high pressure can actually make the ride harder, the best is to find the equilibrium point where the diagphragm remains flat where the weight of the car exerting the pressure on the fluid exactly counterbalances the pressure in the sphere. But hard to tell without any real life tests/experiences!

[Hell Razor5543]

As I understand it (but I am NOT certain of this) the size of the hole for the strut spheres is different between the H3 and H3+ spheres. The diameter of the holes equates to the dampers on a normally sprung car, so fitting spheres with wrong size holes will affect the ride comfort (either way too soft or harder than granite, depending on which way you go).

[white exec]

Aneesh, my apologies. The name change with Hydractive 3 caught me out - you are right HA3 is effectively the 4-sphere system from BX etc., and HA3 is a development of Hydractive 2 (with its centre spheres).

This is the table of spheres listed by Citroen (Private Cars 050011, 2002, C5 & C8)
.
? Click to enlarge

The C5 booklet for year 2000 shows the rear HA3 spheres as 25 bar pressure, but that low figure got changed to 31 in later years, presumably to provide a softer ride.

Damping?
We did ask the question here (some time ago) what the TWO damping figures in the last column actually mean.
The classic round spheres have only one figure listed.
I don't remember that twin figure being explained.

If you needed to experiment, it would (space permitting) be possible to fit some classic spheres.
Non-Hydractive XM, for example (not dissimilar bulk to C5), had for its rear end 400/30/1.2 spheres.
The advantage of the classic spheres is that they can be re-gassed, or gassed to a chosen pressure (if you fit Valprex valves).

The firmer ride on C5 is partly design, but also partly due to the reduced sphere volume of 385cc.

[aneesh84]

I have some Xantia spheres with me. Will the spheres fit in a C5?

[aneesh84]

This is the table of spheres listed by Citroen (Private Cars 050011, 2002, C5 & C8)
.
? Click to enlarge


The C5 booklet for year 2000 shows the rear HA3 spheres as 25 bar pressure, but that low figure got changed to 31 in later years, presumably to provide a softer ride.

Damping?
We did ask the question here (some time ago) what the TWO damping figures in the last column actually mean.
The classic round spheres have only one figure listed.
I don't remember that twin figure being explained.

Seems strange that the damper hold for Hydractive 3 side spheres is smaller than Hydractive 3+ side spheres. No wonder it would give a hard ride. Seems like Citroen screwed up somewhere

I really need to get a confirmation from a Hydractive 3 Mk1 or Mk2 C5 owner if the ride was ever good enough on original spheres!

[GiveMeABreak]

The C5 ride MK I was fine - never the same as a Xantia - different systems and geometry. The MK II C5 H3 was slightly better than my MK I H3 and the MK II C5 H3+ was better than both because of the sport mode - much firmer handling.

The MK III C5 H3+ was better than all the previous - different design again - but again it is a different vehicle entirely from previous C5s - the axle geometry and multi-link front and rear suspension makes a big difference, but of the three, I preferred my C5 X7 with H3+.

The trouble with all this now is that the cars are aged, spheres (if on originals still) are well into their lifespan, so difficult to compare like for like.

One thing I would advise against is aftermarket spheres - these saucer spheres are not intended to be re-gassed, having a much longer life than previous spheres on pre-C5 models and certainly would avoid so called comfort spheres on Hydractive H3+ vehicles as they essentially cancel out the centre spheres and stability is compromised.

[aneesh84]

Thank you for the much needed confirmation. There is no doubt now that my rear H3 spheres are gone, but I really needed the confirmation that the standard spheres were doing a decent job. I am not expecting a magic carpet, but I have sat in a H3+ X7 and those have been some of the best suspensions I have ever experienced.

I will get the original spheres in that case. I saw that "Eurorepar" spheres being sold as original citroen (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373428219206 ... Sw0ahgAGCA) . Are they the same?

[GiveMeABreak]

No those are incorrect! Those are for Hydractive 3+, you don't have this system on your C5 - yours is just H3, so no centre spheres.

The rears are 385 CM3 - 31 BARS and specifically the H3 spheres only Aneesh.

Citroen supply OEM originals or they also supply a cheaper version for older cars, which will be the Eurorepar ones similar to the ebay one, but a different part.

We can help with part numbers, but as you probably know we are charged for this information from PSA - so have to recoup some of these costs from members. A £10 Forum donation will let you request official and current part numbers and diagrams from us for up to 2 years - a bargain. Details below if interested:

A response to your question by a Forum Admin will require detailed vehicle information that requires you to have made a current contribution to the Forum.

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[aneesh84]

Thank you. I already have the needed part numbers since I visited the official Citroen Workshop.

Front Spheres: 5271H6
Rear Spheres: 1638044980

The official citroen sphere was for about 95 euros each and the Eurorepar ones for 70 Euros (offered me 25% discount on both). He didnt have the official sphere in stock and said it would take 2-3 weeks to order from the factory. But he was quite insistant that Eurorepar is as good as the official sphere and has the same guarantee (hinting that he guessed they probably come from the same factory). He said they usually mount Eurorepar due to its cheaper price.

Would love to know if anyone has any experience about Eurorepar spheres? Is it worth to wait more and pay more for the official sphere?

[GiveMeABreak]

Ok, so good luck with fixing the issues Hopefully these will sort out your ride problems.

[aneesh84]

Ok, so good luck with fixing the issues Hopefully these will sort out your ride problems.

Thanks Givemeabreak! By the way can you help me with another issue: I wanted two front sphere for Xantia Non-Hydractive. Citroen gave me the reference 1638043280. How can I tell if it is multicouche? Do citroens still sell multicouche spheres for Xantia?

[white exec]

I think most (all?) of genuine Citroen saucer spheres are now multicouche, which contributes to their longer life.
Citroen still have (so far as I know) a patent on this triple-layer membrane, so it is doubtful that aftermarket manufacturers can offer them.

The classic round spheres had their membrane types listed (Urepan, Demopan, Multicouche) but the newer spheres do not.

[aneesh84]

I found a french forum confirming:

All Citroën or Eurorepar brand saucers (C5 Spheres) are multi-layered.

All Citroën or Eurorepar round spheres (Pre-C5) with 3 "marks" at their top are multi-layered (whatever their color, green or gray).

https://forum-auto.caradisiac.com/topic ... es-xantia/

They also mention a adaptor for fitting a C5 Sphere on a Xantia (http://www.activa-club.fr/ActivaShop/fr ... coupe.html)