308 1.4Vti Several issues

[Dannyboy]

Tks for that info Admiral51. If the same strategy is applied to the 1.4Vti engine, if I read it correctly, it allows the temp to go up to 105 deg when the car is moving and when stopped ( idle above 1450 rpm when stopped i don`t understand ? ) the electrical assist to the stat kicks in to cool it more. 105 deg is seriously hot. My coolant is a bit watery at present due to all the messing around , I wonder if it was a strong mix would it handle the temp better ...ie.....not be as close to boiling point. All this time the temp guage stays at 90 deg . Wonder at what temp the overheat warning comes on ? I got up to 108 deg and there was no warnings. It looks like you really need your system to be all working correctly or you can be in an overheat situation very quickly with no clues from your guage . I believe these cars are quite economical on fuel , 40 mpg tipping around ? ...maybe thats how they achieve it . Still think I have an ECU control problem. Even with the stat manually open the fan isn`t kicking in as expected when the temp gets up to 108 deg and when a serviceable stat is fitted it seems to be cycling @ 105 deg. Its like the ECU isn`t getting the temp info even though I`ve tried 3 different sensors and the sensor wiring to the ECU is good. Once at idle , it did operate normally and the temp dropped from 90 a bit and the fan kicked in with the bottom hose and rad hot......but it only did it once....other wise it was cycling from 105 to 95 ( scanner temps ) with fan barely running and instant bubble over if you stopped the engine. ......hope the ECU I`m going to order will cure it .....there`s nothing left to check !.

[admiral51]

Dannyboy i am no expert and i cannot check anymore as the boy has sold the pug but i will try and explain my understanding of the stat operation and please do not take this as gospel, most on the forum know to take my thinking with a large dose of salt lol
*******Based on the previous post with the info provided by Marc and may not be specific to your thermostat/engine*****

The thermostat itself will open without any ECU input at 105 degrees, that is its default opening so in my view if everything else goes pear shaped the stat will open at 105 degs.
Having looked at the graphs there are various sensors that detect and effect the piloted part of the stat, ie even though the temp is below the 105 default opening of the stat it can be forced to open by sending a signal to melt the wax, in the diagrams in the post it can happen at 89 degrees, by sending the signal to melt the wax you get the extra 16 degrees needed to open the stat.
The bit about 1450 rpm is something that really knocked me sideways.
The thermostat will not open until 105 degs or unless the system decides it needs to be opened due to load etc.
The 3 steps are used to tell the ECU to open the thermostat to start a bleed process, crazy i know but it works, and if the stat will not open by default until 105 deg how else are you going to bleed the system ?
Somewhere in the post it says something about exhaust sensor and the last bit says about the catalytic sensor being involved in the post operation of the cooling fans.
Think the other graph show temp and % to say what speed the cooling fans should be operating at.

Probably i have been no help but i am trying

** EDIT **
As for the 3 steps i did the following
1. Idle for 10 secs
2. Revs held @ 1800-2000 for 10 secs
3. Idle for 10 secs.

After 2-3 mins both top and bottom rad hoses were warm and coolant needed topping up

Colin

[Dannyboy]

Hi Admiral51....tks for input.....your explanation makes sense. Yes, the idle above 1450 rpm bit doesn`t . What about when you are just ticking over in traffic on a hot day ? If engine is not under heavy load or idling it heats up to 105 Deg ? .....thats hot !!. As regards the bleeding , the two bleed ports are one on the heater rad at the bulkhead and the other on the stat body near the temp sensor......both will bleed air out whether the stat is open or not. They work well enough. I was happy I got all the air out. It will be interesting to see how things work when I replace the ECU and refit the new fully functional stat. This will be my fourth time fitting the stat......did it in about an hour and a half the last time. The first time was a pig.....couldn`t get the pipe from the stat body that goes around the back of the engine out of the plastic pipe that goes from the stat to the water pump. That pipe can easily be damaged, you cant get a grip on it to pull it out of the water pump entry. I replaced it with a new one when I was doing the head gasket. I believe garages charge about 350 euro for a stat change and some won`t do it ..i can see why. Its about 150 euro for pipe and stat body and probably 3 hrs , some of it swearing to get it out , possibly breaking the plastic pipe in the process. The only way I got it out the first time was by grabbing the pipe in a channel locks / water pump pliers and twisting it .....no real space to do that either. You can`t see the end that goes into the water pump and have to "feel" it into place and its a tight fit to push in ....push in too far and the stat pipe wont go in enough to fit the retaining clip and you have to pull it out a bit again and can`t get a grip without damaging it.
Since I got the car you notice other ones.......quite a few 2008 308`s knocking about, the odd 2011/2012 not many 2009 / 2010 ones around. Must be reliable enough when sorted. They don`t sell well and the prices are low......quite a few on local sales sites ...not shifting. Will let you know how I get on.....ECU has to fix it .....there is nothing left !! There was a time when a stat change was a simple job and you could leave it out and blank the rad for the winter if you were stuck with the mechanical fan spinning away merrily. Or what about thermosyphon on the 30`s models.....not even a water pump !.

[gwest]

Dannyboy,
When I was warming up my engine after putting in fresh water to dilute any coolant left in the system, if I switched on the A/C the fan came on well before the engine had reached operating temperature. In fact I then turned it off because I thought it would prolong the warm up. At least it confirms that the fan operates.
As far as I can ascertain, having a cooling system pressurised to 15 psi will raise the boiling point of water by 25C. So I am hoping that I will not run into any boiling problems when I first take my car for a proper run using just fresh water in the engine. 50% ethylene glycol only raises the boiling point another 6C.
One consistent problem with your car has been coolant bubbling and spilling over in the expansion tank even though there has been no apparent indication of the engine running hot. I would be really interested to see how much pressure your system was running at, and whether a new cap would make a difference.

[Dannyboy]

Hi Gwest , you have me thinking now......still doesnt explain why my fan doesn`t come on even with aircon on...It looks like the stat wont be electrically assisted when running at idle so temp going up to 105 deg may not be incorrect.....and would work fine if the fan kicked in . It would be interesting to see what pressures the cooling system is working at......could it be as simple as a faulty cap ?.....still doesnt explain the fan.

Anyway my ECU change plans have fallen at the first fence.....Bought a compatible ECU....35 euro....e bay advert said it was working fine before removal.....sent it to a specialist to get the immobiliser removed......that cost about 220 euro incl postage and "brexit customs charges ". Fitted it to the car and it has a littany of issues that wont clear on scanner reset......live data all over the place also....flashing eng mgmt light also. Put my own back in , all faults disappeared. !!!. The ECU specialist can`t see any ECU issues when removing immobiliser so I will talk to him and see what he recommends, he has looked after me before. He did say he might need to transfer software from one to another but didn`t need to do in the end. So much for the cheap car challenge but it is interesting trying to get to the core of the problem. I`ll check out the cap and aircon fan in the meantime. ...the saga continues.

[Dannyboy]

The fault codes I`m left with on the "new ECU "all seem to be spurious. Spoke to my ECU man.....he thinks its a software issue with my new ECU.....The live data issue can be caused by incorrect software selection on the scanner. He says see does the car drive o.k. apart from the EML flashing . He can clone the software from the old ECU ( without affecting it ) onto the new one , just charging me postage. He says check the fan / stat issue is sorted with the "new ECU" first.

[Dannyboy]

*** Bingo !...nearly there. Fitted the "good" stat and filled up with a strong coolant mix. Drove the car...it
drove fine....Stat and fan all worked. Got reliable live data using MEVD17.4.2 Engine code 5FU instead of MEV17.4 and my engine code 8FS . When idling it controls to 102 deg and when giving it the welly on the open road it controls to 85/90 deg approx. The fan kicks in and out as required and is very quiet, you can`t hear it , only see it spinning. See the temp drop on the scanner and have a look and sure enough bottom hose gets hotter and the fan kicks in . Doesn`t spin very fast or for very long but controls the temp. The bottom rad hose
and rad are cold / warm / hot at various times as it controls the temp. No gurgling or bubbling over through the cap if you kill the engine when hot either. So now I know its the ECU. There is still a litany of fault codes on the "new ECU" relating to loads of engine systems and the EML flashing on and off with "anti pollution warning " . car drives fine. Hopefully the software swap will sort those issues. Tried my old ECU in again afterwards and no codes or EML but I did have a stat open circuit strangely enough. That code cleared before when I fitted the good stat earlier. Fan still doesn`t run when you switch on the A/C. ABS / Anti skid fault again , hyd pump. It gets upset when the battery is disconnected / connected and doesn`t want to reset , as before. Packaged up the two ECU`s and sent them to the ECU man. Fingers crossed.

[gwest]

You can congratulate yourself on diagnosing the ECU as the problem and I wait with interest the results from the programming of your replacement ECU. It is no wonder that the previous owner gave up on it. One thing our cars have in common is the appearance of the ABS/brake warning after battery reconnection. Mine has not gone away after about 40km of driving (unregistered). My basic scan tool does not register any faults but then it does not appear to be able to talk to the ABS. I have ordered a Launch CRP123e scan tool to see if it can give my ABS module a good talking to. I appreciate the pitfalls of not using Diagbox but I have enough trouble trying to keep our Windows 10 desktop operating let alone a Windows 7 laptop. My $800 cheap 207CC challenge is now tipping the scales at $6700. Admittedly that did include buying another car for its engine. I might regain some fiscal credibility if I can fix my original engine and sell it off, but my reco blokes have had the cylinder head for 6 months already. Covid 19 resulted in them being swamped with old engines!

[Dannyboy]

Hi Gwest, no congrats yet. Cheap car challenges may not be that cheap as we are finding out. It now looks like the software is the issue. Fitted the returned ECU. This is the one from a 308SW with the incorrect software. Software from my original ECU swapped onto it .......and the problem is back !. Its slightly improved and enough to get me through the NCT ( MOT ) I think.....no engine management lights and no faults / warnings.

So I now have two ECU`s with what I think is dodgy software. Dont know if my ECU man can fix that.
Anyway........the car actually drives great, during a couple of test drives, I " reset the adaptives" by touching the positive removed terminal from the battery to the negative terminal still connected to the battery and it actually works.....Car ran much better after it , was lethargic before , probably would have gradually " learned " new adaptives.

Thermostat "reference temp" changes as you drive it , viewed on the scanner. Light loads or idling, the reference temp goes to high in a gradual way and the stat operation follows it ....ie going up a nearby hill, ref temp is in the nineties, coming down the hill, it raises up to 104 deg. and the stat ( coolant temp ) follows it. The problem comes when you are idling for a prolonged time ( 20 min ) . On the bought ECU when the immobiliser was off but the software was incorrect the stat / fan controlled to 102 deg on idle. Cooled the temp down to low nineties and cycled in that manner, very little fan input ( very quiet ) but enough to cycle it and the engine seemed happy..all very civilised. Was happy with that part.

Now with the "new " bought ECU with my old software on it .....it controls to 104 deg mostly at idle but if you leave it idling it controls up to 108 deg.....no faults or warnings, doesn`t bubble over when you shut it off but did get a dribble from the cap at one stage but the engine doesn`t like it, Idle becomes a bit lumpy and if you shut it off and restart doesn`t want to idle unless you gently accelerate a few times. . If you leave it running it gave an "low oil pressure warning " a couple of times, disappears when you raise the idle slightly but all signs are that it is on the verge of overheat and unhappy ( me too ) .
Put in my old ECU ......does exactly the same. On both, at idle, if you raise the idle rpm on the throttle it seems to cycle at a slightly lower temp.....104 , and works better.

The irony is I would very rarely be in a situation with prolonged idling except if stuck in town traffic. I`m going to go ahead with putting it on the road , NCT ( MOT ) on friday 7th....don`t want to miss that date .
I have the recommended 5W-30 syntethic oil in it , thinking of changing to 10W-40 semi which stays thicker at high temps ( previous experience on old cars ) to avoid low oil press warning during the prolonged idling during the NCT. I will follow up with my ECU man and ask his opinion about the software. Don`t think its really his problem. He doesn`t have the correct software avail at hand....he just swaps it over. I`m thinking the solution is to buy another correct p/n ( and ECU software ) avail for about 60 euro and hopefully he will deimmobilse it at a reduced price......I dont feel like handing out another 220 euro total for something that may be the same. Would take a punt on 100 euro though. I`ll see what he says.

ABS fault: During all this ECU testing I could not get the ABS fault to go away after battery reconnect.
Tried everything as regards resets......worked before , would not now. Jacked up the car , got access to the antiskid unit in the l/h front , in front of the wheel. Took the connector off , looked fine , sprayed it and the electrical socket with contact cleaner , let it dry off and refitted it . Hit the motor body a thump with something solid being careful not to dent it . ABS fault then would reset and has stayed off since !
This car would try your patience. I think it will pass the NCT.....car is in good shape otherwise.....drives well and like its tight.......can`t see anything else obviously wrong. ...should be on the road after the 7th. ............here`s hoping..........regards.....Dannyboy

[gwest]

Dannyboy, judging by their recall history PSA have managed to load the wrong cooling system software onto the ECUs of a wide variety of their vehicles over a prolonged period of time. While I can't see any mention of this happening to cars built before 2013, it does not mean it didn't happen earlier. Dealers would have been familiar with reloading the correct software and if you had any contacts in that area it would be interesting to see if they could help. It's only money after all!

[Dannyboy]

Car is on the road, failed the NCT ( MOT ) .....due headlight alignment and couldn`t do the ramp inspection due hot coolant dripping on the tester !. I`ve 30 days max before retest. I had changed to oil to 10 W40 with a can of wynnes in it ....No more oil press warning at very hot idle. Car drives fine normally until you leave it idling, it had now started to dump coolant out of the coolant reservoir when very hot.....got a second hand cap just in case..........it did help, stopped leaking coolant but still very hot at prolonged idle . You get lumpy idling and "eng mgmt faulty" on the centre screen with a hazard triangle on the drivers screen . Showing variable valve timing codes/ main fan code/inlet cam dephasing coherance , all clear and stay clear unless prolonged idle again. ABS Brake fault stayed away. My ECU man said no problem, send me the ECU and he will put appropriate software from another ECU onto it. He said there are three different versions and we can work our way through it only costing postage. I sent him my original ECU and am driving around on the other one. Car drives absolutely fine , smooth and pulls well, once you avoid prolonged idle. At prolonged idle it cycles at 106 deg, maybe 108 deg...99 deg and back again, stat eventually opens at 106 , fan comes on for a very short time running slowly...cools to 99 approx and then back up to 106 again and then comes the lumpy idling and the "eng mgmt faults" Leaking coolant at this temp has stopped with the "new "cap . If that new software can bring it down a couple of degrees it would make all the difference . Just a thought.....the useless temp guage that by design doesn`t show temps above 90 deg has a red line that starts about 115 deg ! I can see why they did it .....if it was allowed show true eng temp it would be up near the red band a lot upsetting the driver.

As a by the way, i`ve used half a tank of fuel at this stage.....trip computer says 35 mpg which is disappointing , haven`t tried the actual calculation yet.....top up fuel v miles done. I expected 40mpg.....all this hot running by design, vairable lift inlet valves and vairable valve timing I thought would give good fuel consumption.....doesn`t appear to be. The 1.4 is a bit underpowered and its hard to trash....doesn`t have the power for that. Torque is good and pulls well in 5th or 4th without needing to change down........acceleration is leisurely......12.7 sec to 60mph factory figures.
Fingers crossed re the software............Dannyboy.

[Dannyboy]

And now...the end is near.....I hope: Fitted returned ECU with the new software.....Cooling fan / stat issue sorted.....car drove better , slightly more powerful but threw up a different issue P2178 “mixture regulation too rich “ and P2192 “ Undefined “ fault code. I had left the car idling for a long time , regulated to 104 Deg C without issues. Lower hose became hot , fan came on , temp dropped , climbed again to 104 and repeated. Eng management light came on after motorway run and performance dropped off . Reset and o.k on the way home . Checked the fault codes , same two back . Reset and cleared the adaptives ( touched the batt terminals together ) went on a long country roads and motorway run, no issues , no EML and no fault codes ......LOOKS like its FIXED ?? .........

Lessons learned ? Wasted a stat ( the second hand one ) it was good , the replacement new one was 110 Euro, could have checked the resistance....wasted a fan control relay, 28 euro ....still have it could sell or keep. The cap was an issue, should have tried it earlier. Could have gotten the software changed in my ECU only , if I knew in time .....would have saved another 100 euro. Should have bought the same p/n ECU and not a compatible one, the software would have been probably right the first time. Software is so involved in running of modern engines, close study of live data earlier in the t/shoot might have helped. Cheap car challenge ?......not that cheap, in time anyway. Cost me 1100 euro total and about 200 in service / NCT costs and 80 man hours. Don`t know if I could sell it and make money, the petrol 308`s are not in demand, the 1.6 diesel seems to be the pick of the bunch, they don`t seem to shift in the adverts and quite a few non runners for sale . i......If it stays good its a cheap runaround , comfortable and now needs no spending......once it passes the NCT ( MOT ) !!........now whats my next project ? ( hole to fall into )

[gwest]

Today I used my new scan tool (Launch 123E) to record engine temperature, thermostat control setting and status of slow fan control relay, to see how it worked out with prolonged idling. When the coolant temperature eventually reached 105C the fan had been inactive all the time, but the thermostat control had risen from 0 to 4%. It stayed like this for quite a while. Eventually I got bored and gave it a few revs and a few minutes later the thermostat control rose to 99% and the fan became active for a short time. By the time the temperature had decreased to 102C the fan was off and so was the thermostat control. It does appear that the normal engine temperature at idle is around 105C. These results are very similar to your temperature monitoring so I think we can conclude that any boiling episodes are not caused by over-heating, but by a problem with pressurisation of the system.

But it finally dawned on me that your low oil pressure itself may be the reason for the lumpy idling and engine management light. It may well be that there is insufficient oil pressure to operate the Vanos units properly. It also does not surprise me that the inlet camshaft is involved in the fault codes. In my efforts to locate a good used inlet camshaft (mine had corrosion on the lobes) I managed to buy two that had extensive scoring on the cam journals and the alloy housings. This was disguised by the camshaft being sold with the bearing cap assemblies fitted. The wear tended to be worse at the Vanos end. While this excessive wear would not help oil pressure there are of course other possible causes of low oil pressure e.g. oil pumps:
https://www.highliftmedia.com/mini-r-56 ... n-and-bmw/
and camshaft oil rings: https://www.etuners.gr/psamini-1-6-thp- ... camshafts/

Quite sobering bed-time reading really.

Grant

[Dannyboy]

Hi Gwest.........tks for the info, those links are interesting. You definitely need to keep the oil level at the max and with regular changes. Regular oil changes really make such a difference to long life with all engines especially this one. With the prince engine it seems they only succeeded in making it complicated and hence unreliable for no real gain. Still, how come other manufacturers use similar systems without reliability issues. I think you are right about the pressure in the cooling system, while my ECU software had it running too hot I think the coolant spills were due to the cap being weak and not able for the high temp.....allowed the pressure to release and then it boils easier.
Car is still driving fine....rich mixture codes staying away.....was that just the new software settling down / learning I wonder ? .....confident of an MOT ( NCT ) retest pass at this stage......fingers crossed all stays good.

Tks for the feedback, good to have somebody to bounce off.....it was probably too detailed to be interesting for most people, still good insight into how the cooling system works ( on the edge 1 ) on this engine.
At least we will have a good heater for the winter !!

[gwest]

It has been an interesting case Dannyboy. My CC auto passed the roadworthy test and is now registered. The ABS C1350 fault was cured by swapping the Abs ECU (Ate Mk 70 ECU 3TU7E06Z39) with one from a 207 XT 1.6VTi manual (2TU6M14C96). The fact that neither of these vehicles had ESP probably explained the match. My knowledge of ABS faults on these vehicles is limited to comments about bad circuit board contacts or stuck brushes on the motor. I do have two small pools of water forming under the car when it is fully hot. One I think is a cracked expansion tank, but the other looks to be the hoses going into the top of the oil cooler on the gearbox. The clamps look alright so I'm a bit puzzled.