No RD4 Radio, No Horn, No Heater Blower and No Central Locking, (ALL SOLVED!)

[GiveMeABreak]

Yes it could. The control units under the steering wheel are specific for both the options fitted to the vehicle and the electronic assembly / architecture used on the car. There are CAN / CAN assemblies and CAN / VAN and the systems designed for one architecture are not compatible with the other. Given the date on the unit, it has obviously already been replaced and may not be the correct unit.


Your C2 is a Full CAN unit, so needs the correct Comms unit to work properly if you suspect this may be incorrect.

[ozvtr]

Do you get anymore information from LEXIA if you select "switch module under the steering wheel" from the global test? I guess not?

It seems bizarre that the COMs unit works but you get a question mark on the global test.

Why does LEXIA have the option of "?" and "--" for; "Hmm, I think there might be a problem but I wont tell you what it is"?

The HF module runs both the central locking receiver and the immobilizer transponder. So if the engine runs, then the HF module appears to be working.

It is possible the frequency and/or encoding for the receiver of HF module in the 2010 COMs unit is not compatible with the 2008 key fob. The operation of the transponder chips has never changed throughout all the generations. So that might explain why you can start the car but the central locking doesn't work.

Are you sure you are entering the right RPO number into LEXIA?

[ozvtr]

Tomc71 do you have the PIN code for the engine ECU in your car. Are you prepared to get it from Citroen?

The Chinese knock off fobs for the CAN C2's (also C3 ETC) do tend to work. If all else fails that might be another option.

How the central locking system works in the PSA cars is a mystery and a pain in the a$$. The central locking fobs for the MK1 C2's (ETC) are nearly impossible to crack and require you to obtain a new one from Citroen at 110 pound a pop + the cost of coding if you don't have the PIN!
The knock off Mk2 (or face lift) CAN fobs were hacked and do tend to work (although production quality may vary). However the encoding can be ASK or FSK so you need to be careful of that too!

[GiveMeABreak]

Do you get anymore information from LEXIA if you select "switch module under the steering wheel" from the global test? I guess not?

It seems bizarre that the COMs unit works but you get a question mark on the global test.

Why does LEXIA have the option of "?" and "--" for; "Hmm, I think there might be a problem but I wont tell you what it is"?

Very simply because of what I have said - the 'Electronic Architecture' of the vehicle is different. The different multiplexing systems used on different architectures use different protocols / data network speeds to send data to the various ECUs. If the ECU is designed for a particular multiplexed network, then it won't be able to interrogate or understand the data it it receives back. It will be like speaking Welsh to a Russian - you can see there's someone there but the dialogue will be gibberish.

[tomc71]

Thank you mark and Ozvtr for your intelligent and informed comments, much appreciated. I feel we are getting close to diagnosing the problem and with any luck resolving it!

In response to your questions:

1) The RPO number I'm entering into lexia is 11641 based on this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gh3aQSdGgvE6Ld499

2) yes I do have the PIN code

3) If I interrogate lexia on the switch module under the steering wheel (coms 2003) I get this ("top of column"): https://photos.app.goo.gl/9yfmUc1aq3AnwtPbA

followed by this, (ECU not recognised....): https://photos.app.goo.gl/vggDMBPWNNcxzeoSA I have no choice, just the "top of column" option.

If I validate I can then see the function of the unit which identifies itself as: https://photos.app.goo.gl/q4AETy4PdMKePVxU6 (the actual unit has the part number "96643946 xt" printed on it.

If I ask for parameters I get this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/u8sci8jz6fQyTY5JA which does not show any reference to high frequency receivers but every single function listed here functions 100% in a actuator test.

I can list the high frequency receiver (HFR) as absent or present in the "ECUs present" part of the BSI configuration, this has no effect other than to add or subtract it from the Global test at the start, (I have tried key pairing with it switched both off and on in Lexia, BSI reset, key pair, and it seems to have no effect.) https://photos.app.goo.gl/ydvAa4yyR431vDnA7. For some reason though I have two handsfree car kits/portable units listed on ECUs present which I cannot list as "absent for some reason (i have none) and are always shown as "no dialogue" in the Global Diagnostic.

I have two key fobs, one that came with the car and one recently ordered Chinese fob (Frequency 433MHz ASK modulation Transponder Chip: with ID46, CE0536) which research tells me is the right one for a post 2005 C2.

The coms 2003 unit is manufactured after the car (22/09/2008 vs. 20/12/10) so there could be issues there however the car does have all the functionality required for the stalks (e.g. speed notification warning), can a manual car have cruise control as this one seems to? Would anyone with access to the Citroen database be able to tell me what this should come with?

The software version running on the BSI is version 13.03 software reference 646212, I can not find any detail as to when this version was launched, would be useful to know if its ever been updated, anybody?

I cannot see a way of updating BSI software with the Chinese Lexia I am using, can a main dealer do a full update/flash and if so any idea on cost?

Many thanks again for your help!

Tom

[tomc71]

Do you get anymore information from LEXIA if you select "switch module under the steering wheel" from the global test? I guess not?

It seems bizarre that the COMs unit works but you get a question mark on the global test.

Why does LEXIA have the option of "?" and "--" for; "Hmm, I think there might be a problem but I wont tell you what it is"?

Very simply because of what I have said - the 'Electronic Architecture' of the vehicle is different. The different multiplexing systems used on different architectures use different protocols / data network speeds to send data to the various ECUs. If the ECU is designed for a particular multiplexed network, then it won't be able to interrogate or understand the data it it receives back. It will be like speaking Welsh to a Russian - you can see there's someone there but the dialogue will be gibberish.

Thanks mark, would a software update to the BSI enable an understanding between the two?

[tomc71]

Finally... I read on a Peugeot site that if a VIN number is changed on a BSI then it will immediately stop allowing remote locking to work but will allow the RFid chip to continue functioning, (and start the car) every heard of that before?

[GiveMeABreak]

Thanks mark, would a software update to the BSI enable an understanding between the two?

No. BSIs are only updated for specific issues - the Electronic Architecture cannot be changed by any software update.

[GiveMeABreak]

Finally... I read on a Peugeot site that if a VIN number is changed on a BSI then it will immediately stop allowing remote locking to work but will allow the RFid chip to continue functioning, (and start the car) every heard of that before?

I can't answer that - the handshaking for the immobiliser relies on a confidential code that is used to pair the engine ECU, the BSI and the transponder chips in any fobs. That's why you need a matched set if replacing any one of these components unless you have new or virginised units ready for pairing. Equipment like the Radio system is VIN coded to the vehicle too.

[tomc71]

Thanks Marc, is it possible to find out the part number of the Coms2003 unit that the car originally came with?

[GiveMeABreak]

I can Tom, but we do ask for a small Forum donation for PSA part numbers and parts diagrams, as Citroen charge us for this info now. £10 will upgrade your Forum membership and you can request live parts info for up to 2 years. If you're interested, just follow the 'Donate' link below and your membership status will automatically upgrade, then I can sort that request for you.

A response to your question by a Forum Admin will require detailed vehicle information that requires you to have made a current contribution to the Forum.

Donate Further Information

[ozvtr]

Very simply because of what I have said - the 'Electronic Architecture' of the vehicle is different.

LOL! I was being sarcastic.

I know what you are proposing, but we have not established that the two COMs units (or cars) are working on different "Architectures"...yet and LEXIA is not helping. Both are CAN systems but they cross over the 2009 point from the FN to the SC. However this is not proof that the two COMs units are incompatible. It's a possibility, but not proof. Unless there is something you know that I don't?

I don't understand why programmers can't be succinct instead of "?" or "---". I realize the program was probably written in Welsh...er...I mean French but, "---" doesn't mean much in any language.

This just proves my point;

3) If I interrogate lexia on the switch module under the steering wheel (coms 2003) I get this ("top of column"): https://photos.app.goo.gl/9yfmUc1aq3AnwtPbA

So the answer to "There is a problem with the switch module under the steering wheel" is: "top of column"?
How helpful is that? I'm being sarcastic again by the way.
I'm just saying the information from ATE (Automated Test Equipment) is sh!t. I work with ATE all the time and have found programmers/engineers less than helpful when it comes to diagnostic software and I'm becoming a little tired of it. At my work I am contracted to do what the ATE tells me, where as I would prefer to do it the "old school" hands on way.

With computers now running my car I have even less choice now do I? It is nearly impossible to work on my C3 without a LEXIA and it's not as helpful as it could be. Computer says, NO! Sorry, rant over.

Anyway, sorry to hijack the post.

[GiveMeABreak]

That’s ok, nothing like healthy dose of sarcasm.

I only mentioned it because I know for a fact that there are different comms units for different architectures having checked the C2

[ozvtr]

Finally... I read on a Peugeot site that if a VIN number is changed on a BSI then it will immediately stop allowing remote locking to work but will allow the RFid chip to continue functioning, (and start the car) every heard of that before?

The VIN number in the BSI only seems to be used for reference and the stock radio. The Stock radio will beep if the VIN loaded into the radio and the BSI don't match. You can change the VIN in the stock radio to suit. As you know when you log in in LEXIA it polls and divulges the VIN from the BSI.
Changing the VIN requires the 5 digit service code.
I believe I changed the VIN in a C2 BSI I installed in my C3 (for s**t and giggles). Every thing still worked. Yes, I installed the engine ECU, instrument cluster and key to get it working! However that was on my 2003 C3 which is CAN-VAN. I doubt the all CAN units are different in this respect.

[ozvtr]

Ok I will come clean and confess I don't know a lot about the all CAN systems of the post 2005 C2's and C3's. The CAN-VAN cars are my specialty but I will try.

In the top of all the COMs units is a daughter board called the HF module and it plugs into the main COM's board. I assume that this is a stand alone module because it allows PSA to mix-n-match frequencies and modulation types for one reason or another. As I have stated, this module does the transponder and central locking. So It's possible this module in the 2010 COM's is not compatible with your fobs? It seems, on the surface, that the rest of the COM's unit is either identical or at least compatible with your car.

The security for the 2003-2005 (VAN BUS) central locking was ridiculously complicated. However it seems they relaxed things for the later (2005-) CAN BUS cars. If the truth be known it was probably because the early process required the transmitter IC's to be individually coded with the transponder chips unique ID and I bet that required more MONEY! The other thing is the CAN BUS is fixed in it's capabilities and they may not have been able to implement the earlier central locking security system. Don't know. The central locking fobs for the MK2 cars (2005-) are simpler. All they did was "lock" themselves after being coded to a car. Meaning you couldn't code them to another car but there was no more of this B/S about pairing them to the transponder. However the Chinese knock-off fobs contain "virgin" ICs ready-to-go. So it seems the Chinese fobs tend to code in OK to the post 2005 cars. However poor production quality and low quality components tend to make it a bit of a hit and miss affair. Fortunately the fobs are relatively cheap. So the answer might be to "brute force" until you find a fob that works?

The engine ECU will only remember up to 5 transponder codes and any previous codes are wiped during the coding process. However it is unknown how many central locking codes the BSI will remember. But it seems that the BSI NEVER forgets a central locking code!? To My knowledge the number of central locking codes is NOT dependent on the number of transponder codes in the engine ECU. As long as at some point in time the central locking code was valid and memorized by the BSI, when synchronized, the fob (an old fob) will work!? If this was not the case when you tried to add your fob to a new engine ECU the BSI would reject it because it's 'used'. That is not the case, you can reuse your fob because the BSI recognizes it.

In the global LEXIA test for my C3 the HF module does not pop up as a separate ECU. Again mine is a CAN VAN car and LEXIA might be looking for it on your car but it's part of the COM's unit and I don't think LEXIA should be looking for it. That's why I was wondering about your RPO number.

1) The RPO number I'm entering into lexia is 11641 based on this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gh3aQSdGgvE6Ld499

I use a 4 digit RPO number but that's because it has a zero at the front. I think leading zeros on Citroen cars can be dropped but not on Peugeot cars. I'm sure one of the guys here will clarify that.

2) yes I do have the PIN code

Just want to know in case you wanted to try a "fresh" Chinese fob.

My two cents is that there might be an incompatibility with your fobs and the COM's unit, as it stands, and in particular the HF module.
It seem to me that you have tried everything possible assuming everything is serviceable and compatible.