Rear wheel locked

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

An odd thing has happened twice now. I rarely leave the van with the handbrake on, just in gear. On two occasions now (I think after I have used the handbrake, though not sure) I've gone to reverse off the drive and it feels like the handbrake is on, no it's not, tried to go forwards, backwards, still the same. The first time it happened I jacked up each rear wheel at a time and they were both free?? Put it back on it's feet and drove off. This morning, same again. Lifted the rear right and the wheel was locked but not solid. It had movement back and forth like a front wheel if it was in 1st. Sounded the same as well. It was drizzling so quickly whipped the wheel off to see if there was anything obvious? Ah I've got drums, and not like drums I've seen before, some 'drum protector' (according to the BOLs) held on by a big clamp. Turned the drum back and forth a few times and it freed. Due to the rain getting heavier, wheel back on, get inside, read the BOLs. I've not had chance to do any more due to weather but would be interested if anyone has heard of this before. No play in the wheel bearing and it's not the shoes stuck??
Any thoughts before I dive in greatly appreciated.
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49518
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6156
Contact:

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by CitroJim »

I've had this happen on a 206 and was caused by the friction material on one of the brake shoes becoming detached from the brake shoe and causing exactly the symptoms you describe...

It could also be caused by a partially seizing brake cylinder...

I'd get the suspect drum off and have a look...

You may experience difficulty in removing the drum if either of the above are the cause as it may prevent the shoes retracting sufficiently to allow easy drum removal... If so, use a hub puller on the drum...

Be aware that if it's necessary to undo the hub nut to remove the drum, a new nut must be fitted on reassembly...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

Thanks Jim, yes, now you mention it a shoe breaking up would do it. It would also explain why it has happened when the handbrake was left on. It's been donkeys years since I've played with drum brakes (like about 30!).
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

BOLs strikes again
IMG_20210208_133504.jpg
Mine doesn't have this, just the cable going into the drum.
Needless to say the drum won't come off. I think the shoes are stopping it. It moves a little but wants to spring back.
Question, When I borrow a puller to wrench it off how much damage is it likely to do? Shoes, guessing springs, possibly handbrake cable?
Would this be a fair assessment?
There is no mention anywhere about a little hole to access the handbrake adjuster with it being automatic so I'm guessing this isn't an option?

Don't you just love it when something that should take 15 minutes takes ......

(Didn't mention earlier 'cause it's in my list of cars but it's the Dispatch 2010)
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by RichardW »

It will be being held by a lip on the back of the drum - how big this is will determine how much you will wreck pulling it off! Hopefully it will slide over the shoes and not rip the the springs off the back plate!
Richard W
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

First day above zero and without rain here. Borrowed a monster puller and it came off very easily indeed, no damage what so ever. The advantage of keeping the drum nice and square on.
Lots of brake dust and rust, shoes perfectly intact and well within the service limit. The auto handbrake adjuster was a bit seized but not massively so that was freed off. It had to be adjusted anyway to get the drum back on. Lots of scraping, wire brushing and brake cleaner. Put it back together. Part of my is glad nothing was broken, part of me not. Maybe the handbrake was a bit over adjusted (too heavy a pull) or maybe just the s**t.
Time will tell.
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49518
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6156
Contact:

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by CitroJim »

Pleased it looks like it's now resolved Pete :)

Fingers crossed it stays that way 🤞
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

Nah, it's happened again. Exactly the same symptoms. Drum moves freely an inch both ways but no more with a metallic clunk when it hits the end of it's movement. It won't free up rocking it on the gears but will with the wheel jacked up. This time I took everything a part and shoes of as opposed to scraping and cleaning what I could get at. The backplate was rusty and flaky in places so that's now clean. The auto-adjuster was taken apart and was nice and free. The cable moves freely and the wheel cylinder moves freely with no leaks
The fact that there is free travel when it locks up would suggest to me that a shoe is getting cocked and the side of the shoe is hitting the drum, maybe due to the poor condition of the backplate, maybe a dodgy auto tensioner????
Anyway, it's as clean as a clean thing from cleansville now!
Give it another month to see if it happens again. If it does I'm going to take the auto-tensioner off to take that out of the equation. It will make adjusting the handbrake fun (remove drum and flick the wheel until the drum 'just' goes back on) but I'd rather have to do that every blue moon than jack the car up on the ferry for example.
Unless someone else has got another idea?? I don't want to replace the whole internals as I can't see anything faulty and it may have been the ropey backplate.
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49518
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6156
Contact:

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by CitroJim »

Intriguing :?

Is it only one side or both?

It seems most odd. Watching with interest as to what the cause turns out to be...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

Just the RH rear.
CitroJim wrote: 16 Mar 2021, 04:45 Intriguing :?

That's one word for it......I can think of a few others......
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2023
Posts: 13726
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
Location: Reading
My Cars: C5 Mk2 VTX+ estate.
x 2993

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I wonder if the handbrake cable is the issue? With the car jacked up it will mean that the wheel is as low as it can go (in relationship to the body of the car), but with the wheel taking its share of the weight it will be closer to the body. With the car jacked up, if there is a kink in the cable, the cable will have straightened out, but with the wheel in its' normal position the cable will have moved (and if there IS a kink it will now be back).
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR

C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by RichardW »

If it was the brake, then I would imagine it would be locked solid and not rocking. Is it tight until the H/B is released, then goes into the rocking 'mode'? I wonder if the wheel bearing is breaking up, and sometimes gets jammed, taking the load off by jacking it up could let it come loose?
Richard W
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

James, I did wonder that but the cable it in good condition and when unclipped from the shoe moves freely.
Richard, I thought that also may be the concern but it spins freely with no roughness at all and has only ever happened when the hand brake has been applied overnight, never when left overnight without the handbrake. When the hand brake is applied the wheel is locked solid. When it is released and the wheel remains locked albeit with a little movement, the wheel moves freely within it's couple of inches of rotation. I think either the rusty backplate or the auto adjuster is causing a shoe to sit on the kilter. The first time it happened when I replaced everything I backed of the auto adjuster a couple of turn and the problem took 3 1/2 weeks to come back. This time I've done the same again so it will be 'intriguing' to see if the same time span occurs or if cleaning the backplate has sorted it?
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49518
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6156
Contact:

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by CitroJim »

Is the brake properly assembled? I say that given your comment about the shoe potentially being 'cocked'. If all the springs are not in their correct positions or indeed one is missing completely I can see how this might happen...

Is the auto adjuster a cam and ratchet or a threaded rod (bottlescrew) type?

The auto adjuster must still remain a prime suspect...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 1579
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 16:08
Location: France 36
My Cars: 91 BX TZD Estate. Dead but loved
407 HDI 136 auto
C4 2l petrol coupé
2010 Dispatch III HDI 90
AND a 1980 Z1000ST
AND a 1983 GPz1100 inj
AND a 1995 Zephyr 1100
AND a 1980 Z650 (my moped)
x 314

Re: Rear wheel locked

Post by moizeau »

All springs are there Jim. the adjuster is a toothed wheel on a threaded rod that expands the two shoes underneath the wheel cylinder. I'm thinking the auto adjuster is still the main culprit in my eyes also, possibly not helped by the state of the backplate.
Time will tell.........
Pete
Notice the BX is still top the list but sadly gone
Post Reply