C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

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xantia_v6
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by xantia_v6 »

You recently said:
Romzi wrote: 05 Jul 2019, 13:25 Some news about my "frog".
It still doesn't run cool enough when in hot weather and towing.


Originally you said (before replacing the thermostat):
Romzi wrote: 22 Aug 2018, 10:14 Hi all,
I own C5 II break, 2.0 HDI 100kw without FAP.
Everything is fine, except in my opinion, the engine is getting very hot too quick when towing relatively small caravan (old Adria with approx. full weight 850-900kg). On long hills on motorway and when hot outside (35 C), I was forced to shift down to 3rd gear and slowdown to about 70km/h to stop raising temperature gauge and prevent overheating and stop lights. It was just below the red mark.

Do you still get the overheating and stop lights?
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Paul-R
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by Paul-R »

<<<sigh>>>

Back to the drawing board...
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

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white exec
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by white exec »

Do you know for certain that the fan is coming on first at low speed, and then high speed?

One way to check it (while driving) is to connect a 12v bulb (5/10/21W) between the fan supply and Gnd, and see whether it lights first dimly (low speed), and then at full brightness (high speed).

Unplugging the coolant temperature sensor (which I guess is #1220 on the diagram) with the engine running should - if like previous models - bring on the fan at High speed (possibly first at Low speed for a brief moment, before switching to High). After re-connecting, the system (again, if like previous models) can be returned to normal by switching the IGN off. Needs confirming for this vehicle.
Chris
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by GiveMeABreak »

A fault in the cooling system will result in fast speed.
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Marc
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white exec
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by white exec »

What I'm wondering is whether the system ever operates at high speed? An out-of-spec temp sensor (not unknown) could prevent high speed from cutting in - something important while towing - while not necessarily throwing up an obvious system fault.
Chris
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by GiveMeABreak »

I’ll have to dig out the exact conditions for you Chris, will post up again later when I have the specifics.
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Marc
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by mickthemaverick »

Just a thought from "outside the box"! I have read this thread right through and there is some very good stuff there, but nobody has mentioned the possible source of the overheating. Is the engine actually running too hot as a result of wrong mixture, dirty air filter, blocked exhaust etc etc rather than the cooling system not coping?
It could be running slightly over temp all the time but then gets worse when under towing load. Just a thought!! :) :)
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by GiveMeABreak »

We should also ask bout the towing weights of what is being towed. If the load (including fuel and contents of the trailer / caravan are being exceeded, then that of course is going to put a bigger strain on the engine and associated systems. It would be useful to know.
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Marc
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white exec
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by white exec »

First post says
"Everything is fine, except in my opinion, the engine is getting very hot too quick when towing relatively small caravan (old Adria with approx. full weight 850-900kg)."
Chris
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by rebuilder86 »

i say to hell with all the computer garbage. The thermostat will regulate the temperature above and beyond all other electronic and aerodynamic inputs. So just wire in a switch and relay directly to the fan to force it to full power whenever you are towing. Switch it on manually when you see the temp increasing. Ive done this for a few vehicles.
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white exec
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by white exec »

rebuilder86 wrote: 06 Jul 2019, 14:40 I say to hell with all the computer garbage. The thermostat will regulate the temperature above and beyond all other electronic and aerodynamic inputs. So just wire in a switch and relay directly to the fan to force it to full power whenever you are towing. Switch it on manually when you see the temp increasing. I've done this for a few vehicles.
Apart from acknowledging that the engine thermostat makes no contribution to cooling above its fully-open temperature, I have some sympathy with that, inasmuch as current cooling systems (not least the one under discussion here for this C5 II) don't lend themselves to easy repair or upgrading, or even to being readily fully understood!

Having cooling fans which operate automatically throughout the temperature and driving range is obviously a good idea - everything from Off for open road driving, through Low speed for mild overheating, and on to Full Blast for extreme conditions.

Single fans can do the job (more-or-less), but twin fans offer lots more scope - not least being able to operate them in series for low speed, without the need for wastefully hot dropper resistors. They also cover more of the radiator, and have huge cooling capacity when operated in parallel.

So far as I can see, the BX (some models) was probably the last PSA car to use the purely electro-mechanical set up of a bank of three relays and twin fans to achieve this series-parallel system, with everything being simply switched by a 2-stage "thermo switch" screwed into the radiator.

After that, things started to go electronic. The XM retained the twin fans and three relays, but the switching command to the relays was provided by the engine/water temperature control ECU, receiving a temperature reading from the engine's water outlet (next to the main thermostat, in most cases). This system works extraordinarily well, and does at least retain the reliable and simple 3-relay output.

With this system, fan rating is selected at factory for the expected duty (anything from 150W to 310W for each fan), and it would be easy enough to up-rate fans if this were ever required. (I've never known anyone having to do this.)

Going yet further electronic, with the maker's current aim of shaving any whisker they can from fuel consumption (i.e. alternator load), it was seen necessary to power engine fans at the minimum current possible, and hence (I assume) the move to variable-voltage or pulse-width-modulated supply for the fan(s). All well and good, but what to do if the cooling capacity of a car so fitted (which we may, or may not, have in this case) is inadequate? Either lot of technical information is needed to know whether a more powerful fan, or an extra one, can be safely added — or else a whole chunk of system control would need lifting from another similar model with larger capacity. Either way, not simple.

Even adding manual controls to this kind of directly driven (relay-less) set up is not easy. Electronic output systems do not take kindly to having supply voltages slapped on to their outputs, and it's quite likely that disconnecting the electronic output (permanently or by relay) could throw up system faults.

So, I really do sympathise with Rebuilder's point of view, and would be quite frustrated it it were my own car. I think every step should be taken to ensure that the fan system on the car is working as it should (from Low to High speed) before going any further. I'm not sure that has been done yet.
Chris
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Paul-R
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by Paul-R »

Has the radiator condition been inspected? Are all the fins between the tubes intact and not blocked with flies, etc? And what about internally? Could there be sludge blocking the lower tubes?
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by xantia_v6 »

It is worth keeping in mind that the temperature 'gauge' on these cars is non-linear, and is designed such that the number of bars illuminated will vary significantly around the range that is deemed to be normal and not much for more extreme temperature variations.

Without precise information about how the car is behaving after the thermostat was replaced, it is impossible to say whether the car is behaving completely normally and correctly.
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by Romzi »

Thanks guys. I was away for few days so I wasn't online....
I will check the fan if it's operating correctly - somehow.
As for what is happening:
You have a 2 speed fan on your vehicle (the 3 speed version was fitted to some ES and EW petrol engines).

The engine ECU determines the fan speed based on information from

The Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (1220 on the diagram)
The Air Conditioning Circuit pressure measured by sensor
The temperature of the Auto Gearbox (where fitted)

The engine ECU controls the slow and fast speeds.

Between 97°C and 105°C, the engine ECU commands the chopper control on a staged basis
If the temperature reaches 105°C, the engine ECU commands the cooling fan to operate at fast speed
I think I mentioned before that I checked it trough Lexia, but this way I can not know if it's running at full speed.
It just proved that variable speed is working, but im not sure if 2nd speed is working too.
I know it have (or should have) 45 or 50Amp Relay, is this this responsible for 2nd speed or it's just on/off relay in general?
Has the radiator condition been inspected? Are all the fins between the tubes intact and not blocked with flies, etc? And what about internally? Could there be sludge blocking the lower tubes?
Radiator was replaced 2 years ago with no improvement.
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Romzi
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Re: C5 II runnig hot (overheating) when towing

Unread post by Romzi »

white exec wrote: 05 Jul 2019, 23:10 What I'm wondering is whether the system ever operates at high speed? An out-of-spec temp sensor (not unknown) could prevent high speed from cutting in - something important while towing - while not necessarily throwing up an obvious system fault.

The same sensor is used for temp gauge and its output can be seen on Lexia or via Torque app.
Temp. readings looks nomral.
If it is showing something above 105 C then fan should run at high speed.