Urgent - Leaking banjo on Xantia V6 4HP20 (now fixed)

[Mandrake]

Thanks for the help everyone, and special thanks to Jim who convinced me that the halfords assorted copper washers would have a size that would fit, and it did! Without knowing that it would fit I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of going to halfords today (which turned out to be an over 3 hour round trip on a Sunday due to a more direct train not running on Sundays! ) and the car would still be sitting stranded, most likely until the end of this week. Phew!

I was knackered by the time I got back to the car from halfords, the job itself was easy and something of an anti-climax, I de-burred two of the washers, (the pack has 10 of the right size) annealed them and fitted them, and although the outer diameter is more than the original they fit perfectly:

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Hard to know how tight to do them up without a torque wrench (I really must get one...) but I nipped them up moderately well on the assumption that the wider copper washers would be stronger than the original aluminium ones, and would need a bit of tightening to mould the annealed copper.

I'd drained the sump to do an oil change before noticing the leak yesterday so now I had to fill the gearbox again. Problem is you're supposed to check the level at 80 degrees and the oil was now cold, but you don't want to drive far with low oil while warming up the oil! Catch 22.

So based on the fact that I drained 4 litres and lost a bit from the disconnected banjo I decided that I'd put exactly 4 litres in which should leave me slightly low. While cold it was about 3mm below the bottom mark but at 80 degrees it was slightly below half way between the two marks. Given that it might potentially leak I added another 150mL which brought it up to slightly above the half way mark and I decided I was happy with that.

I'll keep most of the details for my other ongoing thread but the good news is that the TC clutch has stopped shuddering since the oil change even though the old oil wasn't particularly dirty and no dirtier than last time. Acceleration is also quite a bit better and "sharper" feeling since the oil change. I have some thoughts on both of those which I'll leave for the other thread.

I went for 3 separate test drives today and the joint is completely dry and leak free so far. If the washers are a good fit and have been correctly annealed, is there any reason to believe that this is not a permanent repair ? Obviously I'm going to order the genuine item ASAP, but I have to wonder why the originals are aluminium and so narrow, my feeling is that the wider copper washer is actually more sturdy ?

Is copper or aluminium better for resisting corrosion in this application ? The originals were badly corroded and eaten away...

[Hell Razor5543]

Simon, every so often Lidl or Aldi do a torque wrench that is good from about 28NM to about 240NM. As you may have spotted, when I spot car bits on either website I add it to the post I started (this one; http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=41516" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I have got the torque wrench I mentioned, and IIRC it cost £15, with a 3/8 to 1/2 adaptor and a short extension.

Well done on getting her back and mobile. Although she has problems (and is probably learning some new swear words!), you are getting there, and (based on your other post) she is getting better, and becoming more fun (and I do mean that the right way, not the cynical way). Once you have got all of the problems sorted, you will be able to stand back, look at her, and say "I got her running properly" with justifiable pride and satisfaction.

[Mandrake]

Thanks James,

I've subscribed to your thread so I should see any future bargians. I really do need to get myself a torque wrench, I've managed to make do without one for over 20 years but there are times when I really ought to be using one...

[Mandrake]

Just back from a bit of a "country drive" at a decent clip, checked the banjo for leaks upon returning home - too hot to touch for too long but completely dry and clean around both washers. I might be jinxing it, but it looks like a very satisfactory repair that could last quite a long time. I will still order the correct washers of course, but part of me wonders why aluminium is used and whether copper is in fact better for the job ?

In older cars I remember copper washers being used a lot for gaskets but I don't recall seeing aluminium (or alloy I suppose it is) for the same task. Is it perhaps heat cycling that's the reason ? The gearbox casing gets up to 100 degrees and cools down again each night, would this work harden the copper washers ?

Anyone have any suggestions for an easy way to clean off all the oily muck on the side of the gearbox ? It's absolutely plastered in the stuff from what must have been only about 100mL of lost oil. When the gearbox casing gets hot the oil trapped in the dirt gets runny and messy. Petrol with a stiff paint brush ?

[Xantidote]

Petrol will work fine, as long as you're not smoking at the same time

I generally clean oiley surfaces with white spirit, then finish off with petrol if an oil free surface is needed - white spirit doesn't evaporate off. If you want to leave a slightly oiley surface to avoid rusting in the case of steel/ cast iron, then don't bother with the petrol. I expect you'll have plenty of white spirit if you're moving into a new flat and decorating

Glad the Halfords copper washers have been successful as a temporary solution.

[addo]

I'd run the Cu washers until they let go. Doing it twice is just asking for more hassle.

Spray-on, hose off degreaser is one way to clean up, otherwise brake cleaner in spray form.

Anyway, now you can make the sound come out from your banjo properly, and leave someone else to fiddle about...

[CitroJim]

Simon, I'm delighted all is now good on the banjo front

[addo]

Yes; there was a bit of tension but he just hung on by his skin, jumped through hoops, was really wired at one point but crossed that bridge and grabbed his problem by the neck.

[Xaccers]

I'd run the Cu washers until they let go. Doing it twice is just asking for more hassle.

Spray-on, hose off degreaser is one way to clean up, otherwise brake cleaner in spray form.

Anyway, now you can make the sound come out from your banjo properly, and leave someone else to fiddle about...

I always preferred the ukulele, they seem to leak less

[Mandrake]

Petrol will work fine, as long as you're not smoking at the same time

Fortunately I don't smoke!

I generally clean oiley surfaces with white spirit, then finish off with petrol if an oil free surface is needed - white spirit doesn't evaporate off. If you want to leave a slightly oiley surface to avoid rusting in the case of steel/ cast iron, then don't bother with the petrol. I expect you'll have plenty of white spirit if you're moving into a new flat and decorating

Bother, our bottle of white spirits got binned while moving.

Traditionally I always washed greasy car parts in a dish with petrol with a paint brush - but that's usually off the car not in place, also I discovered that I get dermatitis on my hands with excessive contact with petrol so I try to minimize it.

It's weird, sometimes I don't get any reaction at all, other times the skin on my hands will go all flakey and dry for days with the slightest spillage of petrol on them...

The gearbox casing is alloy so no need for an oily film to prevent rust, and it gets very hot on the outside so I don't really want anything that might burn or smell stuck to it...

[CitroJim]

While Spirit is good as a degreaser but beware of becoming sensitised to it. I am and can't go near the stuff these days...

What I use now is brake cleaner bought in 5 litre cans. It's a lot cheaper to buy it that way than in aerosol cans...

[dnsey]

Although I'm guilty of using it myself, modern petrol is said to be pretty unhealthy stuff for cleaning purposes.
Brake cleaner is indeed good stuff - but don't get it in your eyes (I speak from experience)

[Mandrake]

A quick update on this 5 months and a thousand miles maybe two later, I'd completely forgotten that I still had my "temporary" copper washers fitted to the banjo union and had forgotten to order the alloy washers.

So with something of a brief panic I inspected the banjo today and its oil free with just a dry layer of road dust on it - no evidence of even the slightest weep.

Is there any reason why I couldn't expect properly annealed and snugly fitting copper washers to last just as well as the correct alloy ones ? Or at least see out the remaining life of the car ? I'm inclined to leave the copper ones there permanently, although I might buy a pair of the correct ones to throw in the tool box...

[CitroJim]

Is there any reason why I couldn't expect properly annealed and snugly fitting copper washers to last just as well as the correct alloy ones ?

No reason at all Simon. I'd let sleeping dogs lie if I were you...

[Mandrake]

Thanks Jim, that's what I wanted to hear.