Will's Citroen Xantia Activa

[KP]

Ok after a quick browse i can see the bellows are most likely going to need doing as well.

Question is do i only know which one i need when i get the new strut top or if i order a later strut top can i order the later below as well which is a lot cheaper or can the strut tops and belows be mixed and matched??

Also wonder if its worth seeing if GSF would maybe stock these at all(VINCE!!) or see if we can get discount at some citroen dealers as i used to know one so i may try them for a cheap price, they used to give me a special price of basically VAT free

[CitroJim]

I might be wrong here as we really need Andmcit the strut top supremo to confirm but I believe you will need the later bellows if you buy brand-new tops as late MK2 tops (which is what they will be) used a bellows with a larger top diamater. The earlier small top diamater bellows will not fit.

That's as I believe Will. As I say, it need to be confirmwed and I think it is ttoward the end of the epic strut top sticky thread...

Oh, and welcome to the clan

[addo]

...late MK2 tops (which is what they will be)

Seriously, has anyone ever seen one of these fail?

£200+ is a lot of dosh to drop on some new parts that may be little better (if at all, other than newness) compared with good used parts. Especially when you're on a budget.

Cheers, Adam.

[Sl4yer]

I'm sure I've read (on here) of at least one case of Mk2 strut tops failing. Must be a better design though, they're all getting on a bit now. I suppose if run with flat front spheres for long enough, either design will fail. Personally I'd pay the dealer price if the car is a keeper, and it sounds like this one is!

James

[Brigsygtt]

I bought brand new strut tops & refitted the original bellows, Give it a try before splashing out.

Bodywork looks mint in pics! 8)

[XantiaMan]

When i rippeed off the bit of rubber from the sturt top complete with rusty flakes, it became clear that part of the reason why it had got so bad was due to the rubber perishing. Its had cracked badly and this would have allowed water straight onto the metal part, accelerating corrosion.

On my S2 which is mint under there and so is the TD, i always keep them clean underneath. I think the best thing would be regular cleaning and coating in a layer of wayoyl or even engine laquer to stop the water getting ot the rubber. The must have improved the rubber part of the strut top on later models which wasnt so prone to cracking.

Had i kept the car and been unable to source decent 2nd hand, new would be the only choice. The car is worth it for sure, but until then i wouldnt press it into every day use. I must have only driven it max of 10 miles TBH.

You should be able to effect a decent repair on the hose once you have access to the area. Its not something you expect to go, maybe its had a matrix in the past and the pipe got damaged? Who knows!

[myglaren]

Be very wary of applying oleaginous fluids to rubber, they can seriously degrade them faster than anything else would.

Maybe a silicone-based water repellent would be a consideration. Might be just as bad though, I have no information on that specifically.

[xmexclusive]

Hi All

My experience is with XM strut tops which only have the top coated in thin rubber with bare metal on the underside in the wheel arch. From those I have examined I am certain that the initial failure is not the rubber cracking but Mill Scale on the surface of the metal base forging. The thin rubber remains firmly bonded but only to the thin layer of Mill Scale and when that starts to peel off the steel as Mill Scale inevitably does there is just enough of a gap to suck in any available moisture by capilliary action. This creates the perfect conditions for accelerated corrosion of the main steel. Rust products in an enclosed area expand significantly and this then leads to the break up of the surface rubber. My experience is that even at this stage XM strut tops can be saved by carefully removing all the top layer of thin rubber and treating the exposed metal with a good rust treatment paint. Sadly with the Xantia strut head Citroen decided to compound their XM design error by adding the thin rubber to the underside of the strut head base. The critical problem here is that in the wheel arch when the mill scale starts to peel the rubber off it is not just capilliary action looking for a little bit of underbonnet moisture. In the wheel arch in wet weather there is plenty of water to be injected under pressure and in the winter it has added salt to help the corrosion process.
Interestingly the metal of XM strut head base is untreated bare metal located in the horrible conditions of the wheel arch and yet there is no significant corrosion problem as the XM strut head always rusts from the rubber treated top down. This I think is why the clean rubber off and treat with rust treatment paint works so well. If I ever had to buy new strut heads I would seriously consider stripping the thin rubber and treating them before installing.

John

[CitroJim]

John,

Incredibly interesting Thanks a million for posting that.

[addo]

Strut top failures here, I understand to seldom show evidence of critical rust. The rubber just dies, ripping away. So "they" get you by hook or by crook...

Is anyone game to cut up a used Series II strut top, if they're apparently not worth reusing?

[xmexclusive]

Hi All

Was running a strut top risk thread for XM's on club-xm for a good while now. Will see if I can reserect most of it. I have been collecting and examining failed heads for a good while and identifed three separate reasons for failure initiation.

Axial tearing of the strut rubber - No rusting involved in process - Worse on the heavier engined cars and where they are run for long periods with duff front spheres. Hot climate may well make block rubber more prone to tearing. Affects both XM's and Xantias. Once the damage (main block underside rubber tearing) is started putting new spheres on just delays the enevitable bonnet spearing as it just sits there waiting for the axial tears to get large enough to rupture the remaining rubber. Only check is to examine the condition of the underside of the main rubber block for tears.

Top Rusting of Strut Head Main Metal support. - The thin rubber covering on the top surface of the stut metal support peels generating rusting of the metal support from the top surface of the metal downwards. If the remains of the thin rubber is left in place this forms a rust trap. Capillary action sucks water with air (oxygen) in the optimum quantities to cause accelerated rusting. Once away it goes really fast. The metal of the support cone thins and the top centre hole enlarges until very little metal is holding the main rubber block down. At this stage the rubber block is just held by a thin axial ring of metal near its base. This bond then fails very suddenly. Check the visual condition of the thin rubber on the top of the strut head mushroom and look for signs that the top of the strut is digging holes in the sound deadening material on the underside of the bonnet. If this thin top rubber is bubbling or cracked then carefully clear away and rust treat underlying metal if you are sure enough metal remains in good condition. Affects both XM's and Xantia's. It seems to be a myth that Mk2 strut heads are any better than Mk1 ones, they are just not as old. In my experience rusting rates are not totally age or mileage related but are mainly determined by the parking/garaging history of the individual car. If it is kept in the dry rusting is slow or non-existant. If it sits outside in a dark/damp corner then there will be plenty of condensation in the underbonnet air to supply the small amount of moisture needed for the capilliary action to work. If you regularly park outside and find little piles of sycamore wings or beech nuts left around the strut heads then you are providing nesting for field mice. Unfortunately they seem to like the strut head area and while there pee adding an extra boost to nearly optimise the rust acceleration mix.

Only Citroen could top this by choosing to modify the strut head design for the Xantia so that it rusts from the bottom up faster than the mice can get at it from the top.

Bottom Rusting of the Main Strut Head Metal - XANTIA ONLY - Building on the accelerated rust process caused by that thin layer of top rubber Citroen in their wisdom added a similar thin rubber layer to the underside of the Xantia strut heads. The result is that the same peeling happens but now in the UK the process is made far worse by the winter presence of road salt in the rusting mix. Makes it go like wildfire. The flat metal base is forged into a central cone shape. At the bend the metal is streatched and this opens the molecular structure of the steel slightly making it far more suceptical to rusting at that point. So the ring of steel forming the inner edge of the base of the cone rusts right through letting the cone and rubber block disappear off up though the bonnet. Fortunately Xantia have never interested me as a car.

Hope you find this summary interesting.

John

[ACTIVE8]

Hi All


My experience is with XM strut tops which only have the top coated in thin rubber with bare metal on the underside in the wheel arch.
Sadly with the Xantia strut head Citroen decided to compound their XM design error by adding the thin rubber to the underside of the strut head base. .

John

Thanks Citroen!

So with the Xantia this different design was brought about by the Euro counters, the change was through an accountant, and what they wanted I.E. cheaper part, than what an engineer would have wanted, more durable part with longer service life designed with some common sense!

It really sucks that they did not move the design forward, and improve it for the better!

[xmexclusive]

Hi All

I have had a read through my postings and think it is worth some comments to make it a more complete explanation.

The end result of any of my three options looks the same with a strut poping the bonnet but if you want to prevent it happening each individual cause needs to be addressed. The only single simple solution is to buy expensive new strut heads reasonably regularly and hope there is going to be an ongoing supply. As an aside the reason XM people worry so much about strut heads is that theirs are more than twice the price of Xantia ones.

The strut main rubber only tears if you can apply a large enough tensile force to it. This is very difficult to do however shot the hydraulic front suspension is but if you run continually in that state you will most likely find the sequence of bumps that generates just the right frequency of high repeated forces to tear the first little nick in the weakest point in the bottom edge of the rubber block. This starts the Axial tearing. Now you do not need quite so high a force or quite so many bumps in a row. So you will progressively find more of them as you drive about. As more axial tearing takes place so the whole process speeds up until it is hanging together by a very small amount of untorn rubber. At that stage it might only take the suspension settling while parked to change the forces enough to tear the last bit and pop the bonnet with the strut.
This all can happen without rusting taking place.

When we add rusting that changes the process in a number of ways.

If the rust eats through the inner ring of the strut head metal core then you do not need any axial tearing of the rubber core block at all. The metal cone complete with rubber block inside just tears away from the metal baseplate bolted to the chassis. (Xantia bottom rusting).

If the rust eats away extensively into the top surface of the metal cone
it will no longer hold the rubber core block down so firmly so a progressively smaller area of bonded rubber core block will be resisting the same total axial tearing forces. It will eventually reduce so much in area that normal running forces will lead to strut head failure from axial tearing.

When steel rusts the rust products expand with considerable force to occupy a larger volume. With exposed steel this expansion is not a problem, you can even see the process happening, get at it and treat it. When it happens under a preventive protective coating say for example paint or rubber or galvanising then the results are much more unpredictable. Rusting should be much less likely with this protection unless there is a significant oversight in the design or manufacturing process but if the protective coat fails the accelerated rusting is a common problem. In our particular case the protective coating is a thin layer of well bonded rubber without any significant tearing forces present. This made it very difficult to see what was causing the failure of the XM top rubber. Then I started to collect samples of the peeled rubber and close examination showed that the steel/rubber bond had not failed as each segmet of rubber had a very thin layer of rusted steel on its underside. This made me realise that the problem came from Mill Scale embedded in the surface of the steel baseplate when it was forged to shape. This is a particularly common problem with all forged steel products. When new the millscale has been embedded onto the surface of the steel so firmly that it virtually impossible to remove it. Leave the item out in the open to rust and three months later all the millscale has rusted and peeled off the steel. Our millscale lets the rusting process in under the edge of the thin rubber layer. The rust products expand pushing the millscaleplatelets and rubber up just enough to bring the moisture in by capillary action and also extend the crack further under the rubber.

John

[KP]

Well its booked in with Citroen Doncaster on thursday to get it sorted and with a good discount as well and if it takes less time i get charged less as well

As the cars a keeper i may as well start getting the little bits i can done by citroen though i would have liked to have done it myself i just wont get the time this week and it urgently needs doing

[KP]

Also update on the coolant problem.

I have used a 90degree push fit connector and 2 very small sections of plastic piping that then have the rubber hose ends locked down via Jubilee Clips. This allows a bit of movement as well and means that i can easily spot any leaks in the coolant as the pipes are white

They are meant to be able to withstand 3bar of pressure at 82degree and 2 bar at 92 degree.

To be honest after flushing the system out it doesn't even go above 80degree's much anymore.