Brief Encounter II - The Sequel

addo · Post by **addo** » 21 Mar 2009, 19:47

That's a shame. I really hate leaning over cars for any protracted time; much prefer them on a hoist.

Post by **CitroJim** » 21 Mar 2009, 20:07

andmcit wrote: I take it you've got the most photographed Xantia V6 enginebay ever!?

Not quite Andrew

I have some more to take. The engine bay looks like a breakers yard now

Going back to how a Xantia is constructed Adam, it's a well-known fact that construction of a Xantia began with a heater matrix dangling from a length of string and the rest of the car being built around it

addo · Post by **addo** » 21 Mar 2009, 20:15

Not so far from the truth!

Ever noticed how the front doors are painted off the shell?

It's part of their trickery for installing the dash.

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 21 Mar 2009, 21:47

Did you get my PM the other day?

yes Jim , will call you soon! probably tomorrow

C5 is a subframe drop job according to the book I have, IIRC

406 is out of the top.. Jim mine was at an XUD type removal angle ?

Post by **CitroJim** » 21 Mar 2009, 22:23

jgra1 wrote: 406 is out of the top.. Jim mine was at an XUD type removal angle ?

Ahhh, now that's good to know and it explains why there is a cutout on the gearbox top mount bracket. I looked and thought there was not sufficient clearance 'twixt the engine and the RH chassis rail to tilt it out but...

If the engine is pushed as far to the left (i.e. pushed right into the gearbox mount cutout) then it should tilt enough to avoid me having to fully remove the ABS block and attendant piping

Now that'll be a result

Thanks John!

The ES9J4 book I have (the Xantia version of the C5 book you have John) says out through the top and moreso it speaks of having to rest the engine on a special stand. I presume, with care, it's OK to rest the engine on the sump if some foam is used to cushion it a bit... I guess the special stand (which has four big pins) is so that it can rest on the stand with the exhaust down-pipes in place without damage.

Before the engine is lifted I must remember to remove the flywheel to torque convertor bolts. It'll be a heck of a job to do with the engine resting on the ground

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 22 Mar 2009, 00:05

Jim, they may not be so bad

I got my TC bolted on whilst all on the ground

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Mar 2009, 19:42

This is the end result of an excellent day...

Someone's stolen my engine!

Ahh, there it is, safely in the workshop 8)

The result was actually a lot of hard work for which I must thank John (jgra1) and his Dad profusely for their very skilled help. It's a three person job, lifting a V6!

The V6 may be a relatively light and compact engine for what it is but despite that it's still a huge lump and with gearbox on the end, weighs a good 260Kg. That's a quarter of a ton!

It's out safely but we nearly got a bit stuck using only two of the lifting eyes. However you use two eyes, the engine/gearbox will tip too much one way or another. What is needed is all four eyes used with an adjustable sling as the engine does need to tip quite significantly at the gearbox end to come out. There's not much space or clearance.

We had some fun pre-jobs. Prior to John's arrival I'd drained the coolant, disconnected the coolant hoses and in doing so I made a terrible discovery, of which I'll speak more of later, drained the coolant, drained the oil and removed the A/C compressor from the engine and left it dangling on a rope. Funnily, removing the A/C compressor on a 1.9TD is an absolute devil of a job but on the V6 it's an absolute doddle

To get the A/C compressor off, I had to remove the Aux Belt. Thankfully, the V6 uses a sensible automatic tensioner and again the job is a doddle and a half compared to the miserable job it is on a 1.9 or 2.1TD.

Similarly the radiator

Piece of the old proverbial. No silly bayonet connectors on a V6

Just before John's arrival I disconnected the lower engine mount. All ready to lift now except for one thing.....

The exhaust mainifold to cat union

John's timing was immaculate..

What a struggle. I laid under the car holding the tops of the bolts and John worked from the top. Access, even by V6 standards, is at best described as "poor" and I ended up soaked

As I tilted the engine back to give John room, he moved a disconnected coolant hose that poured cold antifreeze on me

A theme is emerging now. A V6, despite filling the engine bay, looks impossible to work on but time and time again I've found many jobs easier than on say, an Activa. As I've sid in the past, the V6 is a brilliant piece of design and packaging.

We did have to fully remove the ABS block to give enough room to lift the engine, along with the steel LHM return pipe that runs across the engine bay over the top of the gearbox. Cue an LHM Shower

Speaking of showers, we were lucky with the weather

Not long after the engine was safely delivered into the workshop, the heavens absolutely opened. Previously there had been a couple of very light, brief showers but nothing to stop us working. I can oly assume "him upstairs" must have a soft-spot for V6s or maybe he just took pity on us...

The last job was to slip off the exhaust headers whilst the engine was still dangling from the crane as it won't sit down with them in place. John's expertise in removing the cunning spring-loaded clamps from the exhaust manifolds was invaluable. They're like a giant version of a metal EGR hose clamp but made of some incredibly springly material that exerts a massive clamping force.

Right, I said I made a nasty discovery in disconnecting coolant hoses. The car has a bypassed heater matrix for reasons as yet unknown (its going to be replaced as a matter of course) and the elbow joint is smashed. There is also evidence of a big coolant leak in the vicinity. Removing the header tank I was surprised to see some nasty, grey slurrry with the consistency of wet cement runs out of it. I then looked and found a load of it inside the tank.

Worse though was when I disconnected the hoses from the transmission cooler. The cooler is full of this nasty stuff

So now it's all perfectly clear why the gearbox died. The car had a matrix leak, someone put a bottle of heaven knows what in the coolant and it blocked the transmission cooler and the end result: a cooked gearbox.

I've no idea what the grey slurry is; for all I know it may be cement!!

Bloody expensive matrix, that

Whilst the engine is out, it's having a new cambelt and waterpump. It would be sheer muppetry not to replace these items whilst they are beautifully accessible...

At leaast now engine and gearbox is in the workshop I can work rain or shine

More news soon...

Finally, a huge thank you to John and Dennis for all your help today

Bloody excellent!

Post by **admiral51** » 28 Mar 2009, 19:57

Well done Jim

Looks like the comment Big Project is just about spot on

And all i did today was the rear brakes

Colin

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Mar 2009, 20:04

admiral51 wrote:Well done Jim

And well done to John and Dennis as well

Yes indeed Colin, everything is big on a V6, except the engine bay

addo · Post by **addo** » 28 Mar 2009, 20:04

Nice work CJ; well done on the forensic train of thought.

While you're at it, I dare you to convert it to Activa spec.

Post by **admiral51** » 28 Mar 2009, 20:11

CitroJim wrote:
admiral51 wrote:Well done Jim
And well done to John and Dennis as well

Yes my apologies to John and his Dad for not congratulating them on what was obviously a day of hard yet productive labour

Who was on tea duty

Colin

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Mar 2009, 20:42

admiral51 wrote: Who was on tea duty

Shockingly, none of us

I made John a cuppa when he first arrived and he made another for us but that was it reakky, we were far to engrossed to even think about it

Even worse, I only drank half my last cup and found it buried in bits of V6 when I tidied up the workshop this evening

red_dwarfers · Post by **red_dwarfers** » 28 Mar 2009, 21:03

Well done John and Dennis....and of course Jim

I see the suspension rams on the V6 are a lot taller than the others to get the front of the car up that high

So with this coolant blockage then, does this mean that your 'box had a premature failure rather than the 'common' unknown failure?

Its a good job that the coolant problem was detected now rather than later before any damage happened to the engine

Would it not have been possible that this cementy stuff to have caused the matrix to fail?

Post by **xantia_v6** » 28 Mar 2009, 21:12

CitroJim wrote:Removing the header tank I was surprised to see some nasty, grey slurrry with the consistency of wet cement runs out of it. I then looked and found a load of it inside the tank.

Worse though was when I disconnected the hoses from the transmission cooler. The cooler is full of this nasty stuff

It will presumably also be in the engine block and rad. And now probably drying into cement. I would try to flush it out of the block before it sets completely. A new rad can be had for about £100.

CitroJim wrote: So now it's all perfectly clear why the gearbox died. The car had a matrix leak, someone put a bottle of heaven knows what in the coolant and it blocked the transmission cooler and the end result: a cooked gearbox.

I don't follow your reasoning there, I seem to recall that the transmission fluid was not burnt?

To digress a little, you earlier said that it is believed that the lock-up clutch breaks up, causing the filter to block, and the pump to fail. I wonder if it happens the other way around, as the lockup clutch is (I think) hydraulically operated, so a loss of pressure due to a worn pump would cause the clutch to overheat and break up, blocking the filter...

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Mar 2009, 21:21

red_dwarfers wrote: I see the suspension rams on the V6 are a lot taller than the others to get the front of the car up that high

Ahh, now there's something interesting Kev

Suspension is largly identiacal.

With the suspension depressuirised and the car on axle stands under the sill front jacking points, the car sits more or less level

I can only assume the engine and gearbox weight is such that it makes the car act as a well-balanced see-saw

Certainly I've never seen a Xantia balance on axle-stands before but the V6 does 8) For weeks I could not understand why it had not sunk down at the back

Every other Xantia I've known has always sunk at the rear on depressurisation...

Looks like it has near perfect weight distribution

The car looks high at the front now because with the engine and gearbox gone, the rear has finally sunk!

I'll give the whole cooling system a good flush, replace the matrix and the transmission cooler.

Thankfully, the coolnat that ran out of theengine waas a clean as a whistle but I'll have a good check of the internals when i do teh water pump.

I'm a bit worried about the rad but it'll get a flush although it wont be a good one as all pipes go to one side only...

Shame is that it's in good nick so I don't wat to replace it if I can salvage it.