2.1TD Cambelt Tensioner

[CitroJim]

Despite the forecast, it has been a lovely day here so having a couple of hours or so free I thought I'd replace the overdue cambelt and water pump on my 2.1TD.

I should have been warned it would be a dodgy undertaking when the crank bolt refused to shift easily. I had to give it two bouts of starter motor to shift it initially (with a hot engine) and then it came out, as stiff as a board all the way The last person there had used 10 gallons of Loctite on it, the stuff that sets very hard and fast. He had even used it on the crank pulley. He must have had shares in the soddin' stuff

The job then progressed well until I came to loosen the tensioner. The 10mm nut was mega-tight but the 5mm Allen bolt used for locking the tensioner was even more so. More Loctite I guess and it has resisted all my efforts to loosen it and now, the hex has rounded . It was honestly far and way tighter than it ever needed to be.

I tried removing the engine mount to improve access but all four bolts are again so tight I cannot budge them. Well, not without risking them shearing anyway. More Loctite I guess

So it's all back together again and will be handed over to the professionals. I'm rarely beaten by a job on a Xantia but this one has The last job that beat me was hub nuts so tight they broke my breaker bar trying to shift them. I'm feeling very, very deflated and defeated right now

Trouble is, it's got to be done soonish because the water pump is on its way out. There is a growing pile of corrosion behind the sprocket and a line of it down the block and sump.

I'm not happy and I guess my bank account will look a bit sad at the end of it too.

Any thoughts before the towel is thrown in and I call in the pros?

Still, prima facie, the job looks to be easier on a 2.1TD, tensioner aside, than on a 1.9TD. The cambelt covers are one heck of a lot easier to remove and replace. No inaccessible 11mm bolt on the rear cover and no Tetris involved

Now if only it had a 1.9TD type tensioner...

[MikeT]

Impact driver/wrench Jim. A good whack or two with a tight fitting tool seems to be the way to go - after plenty of soaking in plus gas of course. I got an electric impact wrench off ebay - they work well if a little slow.

If the hex is internal, look to lose an oversized torque head - whack it in with a hammer as far as you can go - never fails apparently. If it's external, they make a special twirled socket that supposedly grips any thing with a head. Finally, a speed wrench is another saviour tool. The more you lean on it the more it bites but a sharp hit is much more likely to produce results than a gentle increase in torque.

One thing I've learnt about shearing bolts is that friction quickly creates a lot of heat and that isn't helpful, so it's worth being patient and letting it cool down if it doesn't budge first go. i.e. Give it a few whacks and leave it a while before trying again. Rinse and repeat 8)

I wanted to make the most of this fine weather today but my back says no

[CitroJim]

Hi Mike,

Thanks Hope the back soon sorts itself. Mine is still not 100% from the clutch job

An impact driver is a great idea but... The Allen bolt (and all the others) in question is not the easiest accessibility-wise. There is less than an inch between it and the chassis rail, even though there is a tantalising slot in the chassis rail that might give access but that is at least half obscured by one of the aircon pipes and you cant get anything in there

If the engine were out it would be a doddle, accessibility is the problem

[MikeT]

Purchase, is the key IMO. If you can't get a good grip then you're putting all effort into rounding it off more

From lessons learned, I would be bordering on engine out (or something) if that's the only way. If you can tap a torx head into the allen bolt do so, drive it in as hard as you can. It'll be a one-time use so give it all you got to makes sure it fits real tight in there. The sharp edges of the torx will cut it's own slots in the bolt. The impacts can only help disrupt the loctite? Then a bar or wrench on it and give it sharp blows with a hammer, don't try pulling on it. I get so paranoid about friction that I count four hits and then leave it to cool. I find that I'm so frustrated with it by the third round that my "make or break" mentality then seems to do the trick and it just comes undone.

Have you read Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance? One story line tells about this very same problem; explaining how a screw can be worth the cost of a motorcycle and vice versa if you round said screw off.

Re the back; thanks for the kind wishes. If you suffer the same back pain for too long you begin switching off the all-important core back muscles through avoidance. The wrong muscle group can easily compensate (for short durations) but you're really just training for more paining by regularly mis-using them. It's best to offset this by exercising the core muscles as frequently as possible until you feel better. I think I can speak with authority on this subject Jim

EDIT: Another suggestion that frequently crops up is to weld a nut onto offending screw/bolt. Failing that, I wonder if using chemical metal would be a strong enough alternative to welding? Key it well into the bolt and half bury a big nut in it while it's still pliable? I don't know, just thinking out loud. Good luck, you'll find the solution I'm sure.

[ken newbold]

So, you're thinking of handing your problem over to some professional?

Question 1. Are they better than you?

Probably not.

Question 2. How would they do it?


I know access is very restricted down there and to be honest not sure how I would tackle it. But I very much doubt most so called professionals out there would be any more clued up than you are.

[MikeT]

So, you're thinking of handing your problem over to some professional?
Question 1. Are they better than you?
Probably not

I'm with you on that Ken! I was recently quoted how much sheared stud extractions would cost me when I enquired about an exhaust manifold leak. Time is money and I don't see that many mechanics (though I'm sure you won't just hand it to any old mechanice) worrying about application if they've already given you the speech about the "risks" and you're willing to pay them whatever the outcome.

Yes, they have the right tools but IMO it's in whose hands that really counts!

[CitroJim]

Question 2. How would they do it?

Ken and Mike, your're right Whilst taking the kids and dog for a walk this evening around one of our local lakes, the same thoughts occurred to me. I have this horrible thought they'd just side-step the issue and force a new belt on without touching the tensioner. How would you tell? It's all hidden under covers. I'd be even concerned they'd not bother to fit a new water pump.

Thinking further, the engine mount has to come off to get access to the tensioner..

It looks like this:



Item 31 is the problem. That is, after I've got the mount off but I'm not so worried about that. I reckon once I can get at it, a removal method will suggest itself. A bit of localised heat, hammer a socket on it if I can get the engine up high enough, file flats on it, Mole Grips even, given it'll be replaced with a new one.

Rather than being defeated by it, I'll take up the challange...

Mike and Ken, thanks for bringing some sanity back to me

[KP]

Is there no way of welding something bigger onto it that you can then get real purchase on, like a bigger nut or the like and then go from there??

Ive helped a head garage foreman from a pug dealership do one on my dads old 2.1 and we were done in just under 2hrs 30 but he had a proper impact wrench and the force the things put on from the airline was easy enough to move the crank bits in about 2mins...

Have you got a new tensioner as well as pump?? The 1 on the 2.1td i was helping with was pretty bad and thus replaced, looked very tatty..

[MikeT]

A bit of localised heat, hammer a socket on it if I can get the engine up high enough

The latest advice suggests working on a stone cold engine. If the head of the bolt protrudes and you have enough clearance to mount the wrench (or mole grips) jaws at a dead flat grip of 90 degrees to the bolt shaft and be able to whack the end of said wrench with a hammer, then I would use the speed wrench. When it grips, it's like a bull terrier bite except you can release the grip when you want

Rather than being defeated by it, I'll take up the challange...

8)

[DickieG]

Not looking to add to your woes Jim but have you managed to get stud number 11 loosened yet? I recall that being a bit of a pig when I changed the belt on a 2.1.

[CitroJim]

I recall well your adventures with Stud 11 Richard. In fact I dug out the topic to see if you and I were fighting the same thing...

Alas, I never got to Stud 11 this afternoon

Did you ever come to a resolution Richard?

[DickieG]

I recall well your adventures with Stud 11 Richard. In fact I dug out the topic to see if you and I were fighting the same thing...

Alas, I never got to Stud 11 this afternoon

Did you ever come to a resolution Richard?

Yes I left it in place and gave up before I ended up at the point of no return and possibly having to remove the engine to gain access

[RichardW]

My Dad has beautiful little Stilson wrench that is ideal for getting hold of small bolts - made a sinch of the exhaust manifold studs on my Visa I had failed to get out every other way I could think of! He won't give it to me though....

One word of caution Jim, once you get to reftting the belt, be very careful with the tightening torque of the tensioner bolts - it's easy to overtighten them, and I've heard of a couple of cases where the bolt shears off in use and drops the tension on the belt. Cue v expensive head off job.....

[CitroJim]

I reckon a little pair of Stillsons will be ideal Richard. My dad has a pair and I'll go see him for them.

I had a couple of quotes for the job of cambelt+tensioner+water pump from a couple of local indies.

None lower than £545

Therefore, come hell or high water, it'll be done by me.

I wonder if these silly quotes are their way of saying they really don't want to do the job

[MikeT]

I reckon a little pair of Stillsons will be ideal Richard.

Jim, use a speed wrench if you can, it's unable to slip like a Stillson can. They're only about £4 - unless you go to Halfrauds that is.