aircon bodge

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 17 May 2007, 18:28

Clogzz wrote:Removing and refitting the motor looks like it may turn into a circus, or a contest of swearwords.
From what I understand, faults are ‘timing’ between output cog and flap.
The reduction gears may slip, and the flap intermediate plate worn in the hex recess.
Maybe try the motor dangled outside, and grab the hex if and when it turns, to check for slipping gears.
Moving the temperature slider from cold to hot should operate the motor, because it looks like the flap mostly affects to flow from the heater.

i am hoping for an electrical fault (especially as its a citroen) then i will just wire in my own switch (somehow) and get it to work like that

unfortunately i would guess that if the unit suffered power failure it would just lock in one position not rotate freely so worn parts would be a good guess (especially with climate control where it must be constantly adjusting the flap)

i agree that the flap would seem to control hot air ingress from the heater....it could also explain why the flap does move....heater matrix heats air up around it and the hot air moves towards the cold air (opening the flap in the process).

what i wouldnt give for a simple cable operated one!!

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 18 May 2007, 13:52

It's a good sign that the motor does run, but it may be notchy when loaded with the flap.
If it doesn’t behave consistently when dangled outside, maybe try one from a wreck if they're cheap, plentiful and accessible.
If not, you could use the output hex stuck with goo into the flap hex recess, and ‘set’ it manually for now, hoping that you get some stable weather for a while.

Edit Saturday … This picture may be from an XM, but with a bit of luck, there’s a cable or rod fixing hole on the flap lever:

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 19 May 2007, 18:56

Clogzz wrote:It's a good sign that the motor does run, but it may be notchy when loaded with the flap.
If it doesn’t behave consistently when dangled outside, maybe try one from a wreck if they're cheap, plentiful and accessible.
If not, you could use the output hex stuck with goo into the flap hex recess, and ‘set’ it manually for now, hoping that you get some stable weather for a while.

Edit Saturday … This picture may be from an XM, but with a bit of luck, there’s a cable or rod fixing hole on the flap lever:

ok i have taken the flap motor out.....its a bit of a puzzler to get out as you cant see one of the screws holding it in (found it after i levered it out though)

Ok the motor does nothing at all whatever way the heater control is set and it has no live feeds at all (tends to lead me towards an electrical fault)

it has four wires running to it Purple (numbered 0024), Pink (0025), Brown (0027) and white (0026)

it has a plastic lever on the top (looks very similar to the rod underneath the arrow in the xm photo)

taking the lever of and putting it back into the flap control enable me to move the flap...moving the flap towards the car nearside appears to open the flap for hot air..... moving the flap to the offside gives cold air...so i have a degree of manual control now

i have posted a picture of the motor below (in case anyone else needs to remove one)...its held by two screws one facing straight at you (if you are in the passenger footwell) and the other further round (er thats the one that still has the screw in it

)

so tomorrow i will try to sort out why it hasnt got power (and maybe even add my own switch)

cheers for all your help....

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 20 May 2007, 08:50

Clogzz wrote:The aircon control board is in the space above the passenger floor, high up towards the centre.
The map shows 4 wires going to the ‘moteur volet mixage’, hopefully for 2 polarities.

Story from Peugeotlogic:
http://www.peugeotlogic.com/workshop/ws ... atcont.htm

hi mate

sorry to keep bugging you but can you intepret the wiring diagram.... the Moteur volet mixage is my little motor and i agree the wire numbers (and pin numbers).... but whats meant to be live or earth (i want to power up the motor to see if it works)

interesting that all the wires are numbered....looks like a straight steal from the Peugeot system

Cheers

Peter

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 20 May 2007, 14:03

Not bugging me, the forum is more fun than watching ‘crappe’ on TV.
The link doesn’t have a picture, it goes to the Shack’s upload page.
Not sure of what the 4 wires are meant to do.

The motor may not have an earth or live as such.
To spin in two directions, it would need a centre tap earth, with a positive feed for one direction, and a negative feed for the other direction … 3 wires.
As it is, I think 2 wires are used for one direction, while the other 2 do nothing until they’re fed to spin in the other direction.

I would suggest to try measuring for ohms, then apply a voltage with a globe in series for in case there was high current.
Also try measuring the plug for voltage.
If you’re sure that the sensor is good, maybe heat it by holding it between 2 fingers, and cool it by blowing on it, or wetting it with cold water.
Variations of temperature sensing should apply a voltage to the flap motor plug, giving an indication of where to expect what polarity.
So, no certainties, unfortunately,

but some directions to explore.

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 20 May 2007, 14:18

Clogzz wrote:Not bugging me, the forum is more fun than watching ‘crappe’ on TV.
The link doesn’t have a picture, it goes to the Shack’s upload page.
Not sure of what the 4 wires are meant to do.
The motor may not have an earth or live as such.
To spin in two directions, it would need a centre tap earth, with a positive feed for one direction, and a negative feed for the other direction … 3 wires.
As it is, I think 2 wires are used for one direction, while the other 2 do nothing until they’re fed to spin in the other direction.

I would suggest to try measuring for ohms, then apply a voltage with a globe in series for in case there was high current.
Also try measuring the plug for voltage.
If you’re sure that the sensor is good, maybe heat it by holding it between 2 fingers, and cool it by blowing on it, or wetting it with cold water.
Variations of temperature sensing should apply a voltage to the flap motor plug, giving an indication of where to expect what polarity.
So, no certainties, unfortunately, but some directions to explore.

your tv isnt any better than ours then.....

hmmm i can sense that i will end up fitting a long rod (that comes out in the passenger footwell) to manually adjust temp

or just have a winter/summer setting (crawl into the footwell twice a year)

once car electrics move beyond live and earth its all a bit of a foreign language to me

but have multimeter will travel etc etc

but i am loads further forward than i ever have been before.........

not doing to well at image shack either here is another go.....

http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 134xm6.jpg

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 20 May 2007, 15:23

That looks a lot better than this, but is no consolation as you’ve got a ‘lurking’ fault.
Maybe try squirting holy water into the motor and gears with the spaghetti.
You could also dangle the motor for now to see if it sometimes moves the cog, while the rod is set to ‘summer’.
In time, the inclination to go further may overcome you.

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 20 May 2007, 15:45

Clogzz wrote:That looks a lot better than this, but is no consolation as you’ve got a ‘lurking’ fault.
Maybe try squirting holy water into the motor and gears with the spaghetti.
You could also dangle the motor for now to see if it sometimes moves the cog, while the rod is set to ‘summer’.
In time, the inclination to go further may overcome you.

blimey thats a bit of damage....i take it thats a plastic connector....

on the one i removed its a metal connector (probably to overcome that problem)

the connector is a bit shorter as well

ah the old dangle the half fixed repair trick.....yeah its not a bad idea

or i could remove a motor of a friends car and see if that works.....i just have a nasty feeling that i would never get his to work properly again (its that bit on the peugeot site where it says its 'tricky' to get them aligned again properly.....if thats a Haynes sort of 'tricky' it means so near impossible as just give up before you start)

suppose if i get a motor from a scrap yard and that doesnt work either its likely to be a wiring fault

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 20 May 2007, 18:27

Just went over the whole topic and back to the French site where the pictures came from.
Since you have air blowing at whatever temperature it feels like, it indicates that the flap is moving, and with the metal connector not broken, it means that the drive mechanism operates the flap.
That would put the motor and drive assembly out of contention.

The French site writes about faulty climate control ECU’s, replaced by a modified version, part Nº PR6461 G6.
That lives high up towards the centre, behind the glove box.
Cars of a more recent vintage than yours will have the modified ECU.
With a bit of luck, the wreckers won’t know the value of that, and let go cheaply.
Back tomorrow.

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 20 May 2007, 18:37

Clogzz wrote:Just went over the whole topic and back to the French site where the pictures came from.
Since you have air blowing at whatever temperature it feels like, it indicates that the flap is moving, and with the metal connector not broken, it means that the drive mechanism operates the flap.
That would put the motor and drive assembly out of contention.

The French site writes about faulty climate control ECU’s, replaced by a modified version, part Nº PR6461 G6.
That lives high up towards the centre, behind the glove box.
Cars of a more recent vintage than yours will have the modified ECU.
With a bit of luck, the wreckers won’t know the value of that, and let go cheaply.
Back tomorrow.

makes sense as the flap certainly closes in either direction now....i will pull the glovebox out and see if i can find that ECU....though i am going to reconnect the motor and mark exactly where it is now using a marker pen...if it moves as i drive around that would put the ECU right in the frame

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 20 May 2007, 18:50

Think that you can see and reach the ECU from under the dash.
If so, it may be better than risking damage to the glove box.
Gone now.

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 20 May 2007, 18:59

Clogzz wrote:Think that you can see and reach the ECU from under the dash.
If so, it may be better than risking damage to the glove box.
Gone now.

fair enough.... i will jump back into the footwell

thanks for all your help today

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 27 May 2007, 10:59

ok i reconnected the air con motor thingy for a week to see what it does.....it doesnt seem to matter what temp the air con is set to it follows the same pattern

when you first turn on it rotates clockwise waits a couple of seconds then rotates back anticlockwise, occasionally (for no apparent reason it moves)

makes a nice whirring sound so you can hear it move whilst you are driving

so since the motor seems to be ok would there be a way for me to wire a switch to it so i can adjust it within the car?

i dont need climate control i would just like to control the temp

Cheers

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 27 May 2007, 14:50

Still don’t know more about the wiring of the motor than last week.

I’ve put the question to the French, and wait to see what they’ll make of it:

http://www.planete-citroen.com/forum/sh ... hp?t=67814

http://109772.aceboard.net/109772-1130- ... rieure.htm

This looks like the RichardW fault posted on the previous page, that he cured by dangling the dash temperature sensor outside.
If the sensor is known to be good, isn’t there an air flow in the car that diverts the air to sample away from the sensor ?
I get that at times with windows down by just one inch.
The aircon CPU may also be faulty, so we’re back to our bodgie.

weety · Unread post by **weety** » 27 May 2007, 15:22

i did change the dash temp sender (for another second hand one) and it hasnt helped....besides on the lowest cold setting (or highest hot setting) i wouldnt expect the dash temp sender to have much of an impact..... but then this is all pretty magic to me!

ahh if only i could parlez vouz francais

im thinking the CPU as well.....anyone breaking a air conned xantia out there??