Just wondering if you ever got anywhere with the metal clutch cable clips to replace the plastic effort on the Xantia?
A friend of mine's plastic clip has snapped for the second time tonight and he's looking for alternatives.
FAO Jon
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Jon
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
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- x 2
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Wolfie
- Posts: 11
- Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 15:49
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algieuk
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 07 Apr 2003, 14:56
Yep, It's a swine. 2 days after I replaced the doseur valve the perishing little clip broke. Ordered one from AS together with a clutch cable and set to work. Took out the steering wheel, steering column and eventually managed to get the pedal out. Fitted the clip and then found I had the wrong cable. Phoned AS and was told that they only stock the one cable.......be careful if you need to change one......the one they stock does not have an adjuster on it and would not work. Oiled the old cable and set to work on the bit of the job I didn't fancy...connecting the cable to the clip. I read all sorts of stories about fiddling with pliers, or getting a friend to push it through while wedging the pedal. All I did was unhook the cable at the gearbox end, push the slack out of the cable, grab it inside the car and connect it before I put the pedal back into place. When the pedal was relocated the cable and clip supported it while I put the bolt back in. I can't imagine why everyone said it couldn't be done that way. Don't want to do the job again, but I won't be frightenend of it in future.
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
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- x 2
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algieuk
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 07 Apr 2003, 14:56
Have one of the later cables on my bench, and lower connection to gearbox seems the same. Is there a reason you can't disconnect the cable from the gearbox? If you can then there should be no problem pushing the cable back through. All vehicles referred to in the haynes manual have the manual adjust cable (only type mentioned there 1993-1998) and you can most definitely connect the clip before you put the pedal back on these cars. If I had know this beforehand I would not have take out the steering column etc.
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rabenson
- Posts: 328
- Joined: 15 Jul 2002, 15:14
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- x 2
<font color="blue">The auto adjusting cable is actualy two cables in one, the adjusting unit in the centre of the cable maintains spring pressure on each of the cables, the spring on the upper cable is there to ensure there is no slack in it, as the clutch wears (and the cables stretch) the spring loaded lower cable takes up that wear.</font id="blue">
<font color="red">Correction, got me wires crossed with another cable type adjuster, wasn't even from a car[:I]
Inner main cable is one piece, outer cable is two piece with the mechanism attached to the upper part which expands and engages with a multistart thread moulded onto the inside of the plastic cylinder, the most cable that can be exposed at the pedal end without having to compress the spring is three inches.</font id="red">
<font color="blue">When the pedal is at rest there is no solid connection between the two cables, the connection is only made solid when the pedal is pressed, then the adjusting mechanism of the upper cable grabs the lower cable and pulls it along as normal.</font id="blue">
On this cable only about two inches of inner cable IIRC extend beyond the outer sheath at the clutch pedal end and is almost impossible to gain more while fitting due to the spring pressure.
If you were to fit the pedal end of this cable without it being engaged at the gearbox end first, you would find it difficult to pull enough cable back towards the box to get it over the bracket, so you see this is where the long pliers come in handy, doing this cable in the correct order and with the afore mentioned long pliers this job presents no problem.
When the new cable is in position and the pedal and clip are in position, its just a matter of holding the inner cable with the pliers, preventing it being pushed out of the bulkhead, then lifting the pedal untill the clip engages, job done.
Ron.
I believe as do some others that the clutch gets heavier due to the changing geometry of the diaphragm spring as wear takes place, there are other contributory factors also like the drying up lubricant and the onset of rust formation at critical points, heavy dust build up is another hinderance.
I have some photo's showing the position of release bearings on both worn and new clutches for comparrison somewhere, might post them if I can find 'em.
Dave
p.s blue (original) text incorrect, red text correct.
<font color="red">Correction, got me wires crossed with another cable type adjuster, wasn't even from a car[:I]
Inner main cable is one piece, outer cable is two piece with the mechanism attached to the upper part which expands and engages with a multistart thread moulded onto the inside of the plastic cylinder, the most cable that can be exposed at the pedal end without having to compress the spring is three inches.</font id="red">
<font color="blue">When the pedal is at rest there is no solid connection between the two cables, the connection is only made solid when the pedal is pressed, then the adjusting mechanism of the upper cable grabs the lower cable and pulls it along as normal.</font id="blue">
On this cable only about two inches of inner cable IIRC extend beyond the outer sheath at the clutch pedal end and is almost impossible to gain more while fitting due to the spring pressure.
If you were to fit the pedal end of this cable without it being engaged at the gearbox end first, you would find it difficult to pull enough cable back towards the box to get it over the bracket, so you see this is where the long pliers come in handy, doing this cable in the correct order and with the afore mentioned long pliers this job presents no problem.
When the new cable is in position and the pedal and clip are in position, its just a matter of holding the inner cable with the pliers, preventing it being pushed out of the bulkhead, then lifting the pedal untill the clip engages, job done.
Ron.
I believe as do some others that the clutch gets heavier due to the changing geometry of the diaphragm spring as wear takes place, there are other contributory factors also like the drying up lubricant and the onset of rust formation at critical points, heavy dust build up is another hinderance.
I have some photo's showing the position of release bearings on both worn and new clutches for comparrison somewhere, might post them if I can find 'em.
Dave
p.s blue (original) text incorrect, red text correct.
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AndersDK
- Posts: 6060
- Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
- x 1
Dave -
A couple of y's ago I had to change the clutch in my CX - due to a sudden breakdown.
It had for long been a pain to press the pedal.
When the old clutch came out - the reason for the heavy clucth pedal was evident :
The release bearing edge had worn a groove into the fingersprings - meaning the edge of the groove pressed hard against the edge of the release bearing - which is a mesh with absolutely no free play or spring action. No wonder it was a hard pedal.
The total breakdown happened when the groove was worn that deep - that the tips of the fingersprings had all broken off - the release bearing then had nothing left to press against.
In this instance - the release bearing was either bad quality or the grease had dried out - causing the edge of the bearing to grind against the fingersprings.
The lesson is : with a heavy clutch pedal - you know a total clutch failure is just around the corner.
A couple of y's ago I had to change the clutch in my CX - due to a sudden breakdown.
It had for long been a pain to press the pedal.
When the old clutch came out - the reason for the heavy clucth pedal was evident :
The release bearing edge had worn a groove into the fingersprings - meaning the edge of the groove pressed hard against the edge of the release bearing - which is a mesh with absolutely no free play or spring action. No wonder it was a hard pedal.
The total breakdown happened when the groove was worn that deep - that the tips of the fingersprings had all broken off - the release bearing then had nothing left to press against.
In this instance - the release bearing was either bad quality or the grease had dried out - causing the edge of the bearing to grind against the fingersprings.
The lesson is : with a heavy clutch pedal - you know a total clutch failure is just around the corner.
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- x 2
Hi Anders, had the same thing happen to my old 205, was waiting at a roundabout on my way to work when the bearing finaly made its way through the fingers, with the pedal nailed to the floor the car just started moving forwards, and that was that, pedal stayed on the floor.
I got plenty of warning that it was going to happen soon as I had been adjusting the clutch several times at short intervals, just before it clapped for good the pedal felt mushy and gears were difficult to engage.
Had to drive the car home 10 miles wihout a disengagable clutch, (only had brakedown cover since buying a Citroen, oops should I say that[:D]) starting it in gear at junctions and changing very carefully, you can feel a light tap through the stick when synchronisation occurs, then holding the revs carefully slide it in.
Used the same method to get back home with a Scania after the air assisted clutch packed up.
Dave
I got plenty of warning that it was going to happen soon as I had been adjusting the clutch several times at short intervals, just before it clapped for good the pedal felt mushy and gears were difficult to engage.
Had to drive the car home 10 miles wihout a disengagable clutch, (only had brakedown cover since buying a Citroen, oops should I say that[:D]) starting it in gear at junctions and changing very carefully, you can feel a light tap through the stick when synchronisation occurs, then holding the revs carefully slide it in.
Used the same method to get back home with a Scania after the air assisted clutch packed up.
Dave
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algieuk
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 07 Apr 2003, 14:56
Yes, 3 inches of cable was about right, and gave me plenty to hook the clip onto the cable. I didn't slacken the manual adjuster when I took the cable off, just manually pushed on the release arm and hooked the cable off and back on. If the auto adjust cable were tighter than this then it would be pulling the clutch in, so I can't see that there would be any difference, and it must be possibe to do it that way otherwise I'm sure somone would have pointed out the need to remove the clutch pedal to release the cable when removing the gearbox. Like I say, with the clip connected to the cable this supported the pedal and made it much easier to get the bolt into place.
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Thregwort
- Posts: 60
- Joined: 27 Jul 2003, 16:51
Dave,
Have I got that right?
You had the clutch clip/cable go...
and then finessed your car 10 miles home???
Changing gear through sensitive fingers' appreciation
of where sychronisation was occurring having hauled
the gearstick out of previous gear whilst rolling along
through traffic???
Hats off.
In similar circs, I just pushed my baby onto the verge and called the RAC. Sad, but true. Oh, yes and then got stung big time by the Cit dealers for cable replacement...£102 if memory serves.
This forum continues to amaze me on a daily basis.
Have I got that right?
You had the clutch clip/cable go...
and then finessed your car 10 miles home???
Changing gear through sensitive fingers' appreciation
of where sychronisation was occurring having hauled
the gearstick out of previous gear whilst rolling along
through traffic???
Hats off.
In similar circs, I just pushed my baby onto the verge and called the RAC. Sad, but true. Oh, yes and then got stung big time by the Cit dealers for cable replacement...£102 if memory serves.
This forum continues to amaze me on a daily basis.
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AndersDK
- Posts: 6060
- Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
- x 1
Thregwort -
I've driven cars since '72 - my own since '74 - and in several instances experienced a missing clutch action. You learn how to manage such a situation - when you HAVE to drive home - w/o wrecking the box.
You quickly get the feeling with the stick - WHEN it's possible to engage the gears.
Once had to do it in Copenhagen (city traffic) with a Mini - which had a dodgy master clutch cylinder (the Mini had hydraulic clutch action) - managed to do it with some 5 startings in 1. gear - the rest was just sneaking up to traffic lights - and carefull stirring with the stick.
That was BTW my first car - with Cooper banana manifold & twin SU-carbs.
Remember one late sunday night I had to drive from my parents to the air base In Copenhagen for duty monday morning - with this same Mini - just leaving my home town the splines on the steering wheel axle suddenly let go in a sharp curve.
Happily the brakes were newly overhauled - so I managed to "catch" the car. Could not feel anything wrong out of the curve. So I drove on.
Untill about 1 hour later - the same thing happened when curving into the motorway for Copenhagen.
The rest was pretty scary - but I reached the air base with the car - exhausted by the over-cautios constant alerted driving.
Next day - off duty - when trying to leave the parking area - the steering wheel axle splines suddenly gave up - and was a constant "round trip".
3 hrs later - a trip by bus & bike to nearest breaker - a "new" steering wheel & axle fitted. Happily the pinion axle splines was undamaged. Some of those bus passengers starred at me, my dirty hands & the long steering axle & wheel over my shoulder [;)]
Good knows what they were thinking [8)]
That was BEFORE the clutch master cylinder problem [:D]
There is NOTHING like your first car [:p][:p]
- like standing over the engine bay - at roadside in the middle of Copenhagen traffic - overhauling the clutch master cylinder - and drive away with a full functioning car 2 hrs. later.
- oh and messing around in the backyard of a gasstation - to find a suitable piece of wire - to hang up a broken exhaust.
- or asking the attendant behind the counter if she could hand me a couple of paperclips - to repair a broken acceleration cable (that was fun) [:D][:D]
I've driven cars since '72 - my own since '74 - and in several instances experienced a missing clutch action. You learn how to manage such a situation - when you HAVE to drive home - w/o wrecking the box.
You quickly get the feeling with the stick - WHEN it's possible to engage the gears.
Once had to do it in Copenhagen (city traffic) with a Mini - which had a dodgy master clutch cylinder (the Mini had hydraulic clutch action) - managed to do it with some 5 startings in 1. gear - the rest was just sneaking up to traffic lights - and carefull stirring with the stick.
That was BTW my first car - with Cooper banana manifold & twin SU-carbs.
Remember one late sunday night I had to drive from my parents to the air base In Copenhagen for duty monday morning - with this same Mini - just leaving my home town the splines on the steering wheel axle suddenly let go in a sharp curve.
Happily the brakes were newly overhauled - so I managed to "catch" the car. Could not feel anything wrong out of the curve. So I drove on.
Untill about 1 hour later - the same thing happened when curving into the motorway for Copenhagen.
The rest was pretty scary - but I reached the air base with the car - exhausted by the over-cautios constant alerted driving.
Next day - off duty - when trying to leave the parking area - the steering wheel axle splines suddenly gave up - and was a constant "round trip".
3 hrs later - a trip by bus & bike to nearest breaker - a "new" steering wheel & axle fitted. Happily the pinion axle splines was undamaged. Some of those bus passengers starred at me, my dirty hands & the long steering axle & wheel over my shoulder [;)]
Good knows what they were thinking [8)]
That was BEFORE the clutch master cylinder problem [:D]
There is NOTHING like your first car [:p][:p]
- like standing over the engine bay - at roadside in the middle of Copenhagen traffic - overhauling the clutch master cylinder - and drive away with a full functioning car 2 hrs. later.
- oh and messing around in the backyard of a gasstation - to find a suitable piece of wire - to hang up a broken exhaust.
- or asking the attendant behind the counter if she could hand me a couple of paperclips - to repair a broken acceleration cable (that was fun) [:D][:D]
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jeremy
- Posts: 3959
- Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
- x 2
Like Anders I started driving before transmissions reached their present state and quickly learnt the art of double-declutching to change gear. The reason was simply that many syncromesh systems tend to 'snick' when changeing and this technique ensured a pleasant change with a smooth lever action.
I used to drive pre-series 3 Land Rovers which had a dog clutch 2nd and straight cut 1st and therefore had to be double-declutched to get second from third and first from second - although with cars of that age 1st tended to be redundant when lightly laden or only used for moving off.
Of course anything larger had very weak or no syncromesh and i can remember having fun trying to master the gearbox in a Bedford 7.5 ton truck. This felt most peculiar until I had a good look at it when all became clear - the lever was remote in the cab and there was what looked like a piece of scaffold pole which connected to what looked like the stub of an ordinary gearlever on the top of the box. What made it feel strange was a large crank in the scaffold pole which meant that when the lever was moved to the left the effect was to raise the weight of the pole, producing a heavy bias in the lever action. All good fun, drum brakes, a heavy horsebox body and no PAS - took a bit of practice to get used to driving it in towns!
The challenge in the Land Rover was to be able to mak the changes without using the clutch and practice was something with which to pass the time in slow moving traffic. Nice and easy to make a clutchless change wth balk ring syncromesh as the balk ring means that you can nearly match the speed then the ring releases and allows the gear to engage without any crunch!
I also recall having to drive my Mk 111 Cortina round town one day when the clutch cable broke - as Anders says - warm it up, then stop and move off with the starter and then just anticipate and hope! Not to be recommended but can be done!
Jeremy
I used to drive pre-series 3 Land Rovers which had a dog clutch 2nd and straight cut 1st and therefore had to be double-declutched to get second from third and first from second - although with cars of that age 1st tended to be redundant when lightly laden or only used for moving off.
Of course anything larger had very weak or no syncromesh and i can remember having fun trying to master the gearbox in a Bedford 7.5 ton truck. This felt most peculiar until I had a good look at it when all became clear - the lever was remote in the cab and there was what looked like a piece of scaffold pole which connected to what looked like the stub of an ordinary gearlever on the top of the box. What made it feel strange was a large crank in the scaffold pole which meant that when the lever was moved to the left the effect was to raise the weight of the pole, producing a heavy bias in the lever action. All good fun, drum brakes, a heavy horsebox body and no PAS - took a bit of practice to get used to driving it in towns!
The challenge in the Land Rover was to be able to mak the changes without using the clutch and practice was something with which to pass the time in slow moving traffic. Nice and easy to make a clutchless change wth balk ring syncromesh as the balk ring means that you can nearly match the speed then the ring releases and allows the gear to engage without any crunch!
I also recall having to drive my Mk 111 Cortina round town one day when the clutch cable broke - as Anders says - warm it up, then stop and move off with the starter and then just anticipate and hope! Not to be recommended but can be done!
Jeremy