The next diesel engine for Citroen...

Post by **Thunderbird** » 29 Sep 2004, 04:17

PSA/Ford 2.7 litre V6 Bi-turbo 207PS 202Kgs
Transmission: ZF Auto 6 speed or ZF Manual 6 speed also
Expected average cons.: 7.1L/100kms
Targets: Jaguar, Ford, Land Rover, Volvo, Peugeot, Citroen.

Post by **philhoward** » 29 Sep 2004, 13:34

Is that the one in the S-type Jag?

tomsheppard · Post by **tomsheppard** » 29 Sep 2004, 13:55

I make that under 40 MPG. For that degree of complexity, Forget it!

Stuart McB · Post by **Stuart McB** » 29 Sep 2004, 15:24

Good idea. But as usual all the good and easy to work on stuff seems not to be 'en vouge' any more. This just means another load of plug in mechanics saying "we can't find any thing wrong with it". On the other hand if it helps the enviroment with even less polution, noise and more ecconomy then it has to be a good thing [:D]. My only question at the dealers would be "can I get spares fron GSF," [:D]

Robin · Post by **Robin** » 29 Sep 2004, 15:44

The vogue is for shorter more rigid engines. A belt at each end to reduce twisting moments on the camshafts and the belts are quieter and cheaper. I have not done the maths but Tom's observation is relevant. All this technology and still only producing the kind of efficiency we have now. This engine at 2.7 litres is not going into the everyday city car but the diesel version of street rockets, vans or luxury motors. We have enough trouble with 'plug in mechanics' as Stuart calls them now and it is getting worse. I am already being asked what will happen when my generation of 'old hands' retires. There will be naturally a whole basketful of electronics on it and manufacturers don't want anything to do with it beyond 150k or three years. What advantages does this engine give us over the existing ranges? Higher BHP/kg certainly not that great on on specific BHP/cc fuel burnt.
Perhaps I am just old fashioned and beyond the appeal of something because it's new or just because 'they can'. R
Thank heavens I only have to deal with marine units, at least they are simply uncomplicated. Lets hope nobody wants marinise this one! Robin

Post by **Thunderbird** » 29 Sep 2004, 16:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stuart McB

Good idea. But as usual all the good and easy to work on stuff seems not to be 'en vouge' any more. This just means another load of plug in mechanics saying "we can't find any thing wrong with it". On the other hand if it helps the enviroment with even less polution, noise and more ecconomy then it has to be a good thing [:D]. My only question at the dealers would be "can I get spares fron GSF," [:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
1. Improvements in matter of polution reduction are impressive - the engine complies easily with Euro IV norm.
2. Noise and vibrations are lower than most petrol engines currently in production. In the Jag you can only tell the engine is on by looking at the RPM's indicator.
3. Economy is also a step forward. 207PS for about 7liter/100kms consumption on pair with a PSA 2.1TD that only has 110Hp (almost half the power!). Urban cons. is higher due to cc increase...
4. Sophistication and electronics increase are in fact a draw back. Repairs should be expensive and guided by the computer. Soon, any dummy can be a mechanic - the computer will tell him what to do (unless the computer is wrong, in this case an IT expert will be needed...). But this is the price to pay for points 1, 2 and 3.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 29 Sep 2004, 17:14

You can't compare this 2.7 direct injection engine with an old PSA 2.1TD, it's not common rail (hence lower power output) and its not direct injection (hence lower fuel economy).
How does this Engine compare to other manufacturers diesels?
Audi A4 2.5 TDI, 163 bhp, 40.9 mpg
BMW 525d 177 bhp, 42.2 mpg
BMW 530d 218 bhp, 40.9 mpg
Jaguar S Type, 206 bhp, 40 mpg
SAAB 9-5 3.0 TiD, 176 bhp, 38.7 mpg
Volvo S60 D5 163 bhp, 43 mpg
This new engine does compare favourably with a few of the engines I've listed, but the BMW 3 litre is both more powerful and more economical.

Post by **Thunderbird** » 29 Sep 2004, 19:50

Kowalsky,
You're right - it's amongst the best, yet the BMW has the edge.
However, here you can choose a comfortable C5, C6, or a Peugeot or a stylish Jaguar or Volvo, if you like, while the BMW's are extremely uncomfortable.
In my opinion the future 2.2HDi (4 cylinders) will be more adequate for a family car. And the power will be enough.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 29 Sep 2004, 20:47

Looks an interesting engine - and really I must say 'About time too! In fact there has been a real problem with larger diesel engines or the lack of them for many years - just look at the things that have been chucked in Range Rovers until the BMW engines became available.
The problem has always been that the larger engines were from comercial vehicles and were slow revving and very heavy as well as not necessarily that economical.
As for repairs - i can remember when mechanics would refuse to change a starter on an car with automatic transmission (Wales 1966!), some of the comical (and near lethal) attempts at independant rear suspension, the terrors of fuel injection and even Citroen hydraulics (there are still many who don't understand them) We now have independant specialists in all those fields and even a number of people who will rebulid ECU's etc.
Whatever you think of the motor trade they are an ingenious lot and no doubt in due course will get to grips with the problems on new engines at a moderate price. Just don't expect the answer tomorrow!
jeremy

blueboy2001 · Post by **blueboy2001** » 29 Sep 2004, 20:53

In terms of BHP/Litre, it beats the BMW engine. Its also said to be more refined. If I was spending £25k+ (which is the price bracket of the cars this engine will be fitted to) I think 0.9MPG difference in consumption would be the last thing on my mind!
These new diesel engines are a massive step forward. No car engine in the past has kicked out 200BHP+ and returned 40mpg. Most 200BHP petrol struggle to make 25MPG. The massive leaps forward in terms of refinement and increases in power have brought diesel to the luxury car market.

Post by **RichardW** » 29 Sep 2004, 21:34

Anybody fancy changing an aux belt on that engine - let alone the cambelt[:0][?]
Mind you it comes with twin turbos [:D][:D][:D]
I'll have a piece of 210 BHP and 40 MPG (oh, in about 40 years when I can afford it)[:o)]

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 29 Sep 2004, 21:40

In terms of BHP/Litre the 535d (3 litre) has it rather beaten (272 bhp 2 turbos etc)

Stuart McB · Post by **Stuart McB** » 29 Sep 2004, 22:33

As for new computer technology. Been to the Renault dealer today by me. The wife wanted alook at the new Modus mini MPV. Groovy but I noticed that when playing with the heater air direction control you could here the flaps moving as you turned the knob around. The dealer told me it was "new thinking" and that to lessen the "overly complicated" electronics, Reanault had opted for "a more conventional approach to air flow distribution package". In other words at the back of the knob was an old fashoined metal push and pull system. Trillions of Euro's in the designing and 10 seconds in the parts bit to sort out the problem. LOL.

madasafish · Post by **madasafish** » 30 Sep 2004, 02:59

It has belts. Modern trend is to chains for greater reliability/lower servicing costs.
Out of date techmology designed to die at 100k

Jiff Lemon · Post by **Jiff Lemon** » 30 Sep 2004, 03:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Thunderbird
4. Sophistication and electronics increase are in fact a draw back. Repairs should be expensive and guided by the computer. Soon, any dummy can be a mechanic - the computer will tell him what to do (unless the computer is wrong, in this case an IT expert will be needed...). But this is the price to pay for points 1, 2 and 3.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I.T Expert? Nope, you need a real Mechanic. My friends are auto electrical specialists. They recently had a Vauxhall V6 in as the dealer couldn't solve the problem. It had a massive misfire. They plugged in the computer, it said duff injectors. They found brand new injectors had already been fitted. Vauxhall confirmed they'd found they same and had fitted the injectors, and suspected the ECU was actually at fault, hence they need my friend to confirm it.
What did they find? The inlet manifold gasket was split. This allowed more air in, so the injectors were overfueling to try and compensate.
Computers can only tell you some of the story - Real mechanics still need brains!