Non starting 2011 model 3008

[ozfrog]

Now that the car is secured by means of the windows having gone back up, I can turn attention to the reason why the car was towed instead of driven home. It doesn’t start. And it doesn’t even crank. There is nothing that comes out of the engine.

In the other thread, I posted some pictures from Diagbox that I believe show something other than the starter motor itself is the problem. But I’m a very basic amateur! Without posting the images again, let me give the information, instead.

The BSI shows 3 faults:
The first is 9528 Fault: absence of command of the starter
Extra information: From: Local; and
Characterisation of the fault: Coherence (whatever that means!)

The third is B9A0 Engine fusebox: Fault in the starter motor control circuit
There’s no extra information. It says: Ownership not referenced; Value not defined

For the engine ECU, there are 4 errors. I think that all of these could be related to the engine not starting, but again, I’m not an expert.

The four errors are P1694 Controlled engine start and stop
Properties: Local, Intermittent, and Fault on the starter motor control line.
There’s a list of other things such as ignition status, engine status, engine speed. The image is still in the other post, on page 3.

P2291 and P0017 both have Starting monitoring

Fault P2291
This is reported as intermittent and local. It then talks about the rise in pressure rate.P2291 then talks about engine speed, coolant temperature, fuel temperature, as well as Rail pressure setting, amongst many other things.

P0017 seems to be about synchronisation, so maybe not relevant.

P2290 Is Accelerator pedal sensor

I have just realised that I should have cleared all the faults and then seen what came back. It’s after 0100 hours on Monday: I’m not going outside to do that! Sometime later today I will get back to it, and on here with an updated version of the faults. In the meantime, if anyone has ideas about the meaning of those messages, I’d love to hear from you!

[PaulC5]

I might have missed it in your other topic but how many miles has the car done. Did you try 12 volts direct to the starter to see if it would turn ? It could be the starter needs replacing, especially as it seems to drop the battery to 5 volts when trying to start and you believe the battery is in good condition.

[RichardW]

Yes, clear the codes and see what comes back. You will need to look at the live data to see that it can see that it is in N or P, and then see if it gives the start signal.

[ozfrog]

I might have missed it in your other topic but how many miles has the car done. Did you try 12 volts direct to the starter to see if it would turn ? It could be the starter needs replacing, especially as it seems to drop the battery to 5 volts when trying to start and you believe the battery is in good condition.

No, you didn’t miss it. I didn’t state it. But interestingly to me, Diagbox filled in that information. Except that in this country, we talk in kilometres, not miles. And so did Diagbox. Approximately 170,000 kilometres.

I think it was Richard who pointed that out yesterday about how low the battery voltage was and he asked if it was a case of a flat battery. I replied that the battery voltage was fine except when the starter was in operation. I didn’t hear anything back from him.

All of those messages in Diagbox have to mean something. I just don’t know what that something is!

If I had some confidence in my local dealership, I’d show them the photos and ask them what they think. Unfortunately, the only time I took the 406 there, they didn’t know what computer they were supposed to hook up to. Maybe with the 3008 being quite a bit newer, they would have a better idea of what’s going on. Then my risk is that they might want to report me for having illegal software!

12 volts directly to the starter motor - no, I haven’t done that yet. Another thing to do when I get home later today.

Thanks for your tips, Paul.

[ozfrog]

Yes, clear the codes and see what comes back. You will need to look at the live data to see that it can see that it is in N or P, and then see if it gives the start signal.

Clear the codes ✓
Look at the live data?

I’ve always hoped that my need to know what this ‘live data’ thing is would never happen! I didn’t want to look so ignorant. But here I am …

What is ‘live data’ and how do I get it? And maybe even more importantly, how do I record that data?

My guess is that you’re going down the same path that I’m thinking about. Firstly, is that switch to tell the computer that the car is safe to start (because the car is not in gear) actually working. Hence the P or N question. Updated thought: is it one switch for both positions, or one switch each?

Secondly, all of these messages in Diagbox should mean something, and that ‘something’ is not necessarily the starter motor has failed.

[xantia_v6]

Is this a conventional automatic transmission or a robotised manual?
Is there a gear indicator on the dashboard ans is it displaying sensibly?
The fault could also be in the under-bonnet fuse box which contains electronics and a relay that controls the starter.

[RichardW]

The codes may or may not be relevant - they were all intermittent, which means the fault is not currently present - they may be recent and related to the starting issue, or they may have occurred some time in the past. By deleting them, and then seeing if they come back when you try and start it you will get an idea if they are relevant.

Live data is what the ECU is actually seeing in real time - do the global scan, click through onto the ECU, and then Standard Parameters (I think that's what it's called). You will then see further menu items with different titles, you will be looking for electrical data or something where you can see the gear position and the starter status.

The low battery may be relevant here (or again, it may not!) - it could be that the battery has a superficially OK voltage, but when a big load is put on it (starter...) the voltage drops - but as above these could also be from some time ago. See if it comes back now you have cleared it.

[ozfrog]

Is this a conventional automatic transmission or a robotised manual?

You’ve lost me completely!

Is there a gear indicator on the dashboard ans is it displaying sensibly?

Yes, there is a gear indicator on the dashboard. And it’s displaying sensibly.

The fault could also be in the under-bonnet fuse box which contains electronics and a relay that controls the starter.

I went looking for a fuse box under the bonnet yesterday - until the rain stopped me doing anything further. I think that there’s something fuse box like next to the left hand mudguard, between the battery and the mudguard. But I didn’t fancy the rain, so I stopped looking.

[Paul-R]

Is this a conventional automatic transmission or a robotised manual?

You’ve lost me completely!

It's the difference between a true automatic transmission with a torque converter and a manual gearbox with a clutch and a load of mechanical gubbins attached to change gear for you. The first type has a P (for park) position on the gear selector, the second type doesn't.

[ozfrog]

Live data is what the ECU is actually seeing in real time - do the global scan, click through onto the ECU, and then Standard Parameters (I think that's what it's called). You will then see further menu items with different titles, you will be looking for electrical data or something where you can see the gear position and the starter status.

That was a bad question on my part. I know what is meant by ‘live data’. It’s the other parts that I didn’t have any idea about. But you have been kind enough to educate me.

Hopefully tomorrow with no rain I will be able to have the laptop plugged into power and to the car. And your instructions alongside me, of course!

The low battery may be relevant here (or again, it may not!) - it could be that the battery has a superficially OK voltage, but when a big load is put on it (starter...) the voltage drops - but as above these could also be from some time ago. See if it comes back now you have cleared it.

That battery had better be in good condition. I don’t think it’s even two years old.

[ozfrog]

It's the difference between a true automatic transmission with a torque converter and a manual gearbox with a clutch and a load of mechanical gubbins attached to change gear for you. The first type has a P (for park) position on the gear selector, the second type doesn't.

gubbins

Is that a real word? I like it, nonetheless!

Yes, it has a P for Park

[Paul-R]

Yes, it is. Not slang but common parlance. It has a good feel in your mouth when you say it.

So you have a proper auto gearbox.

[ozfrog]

Yes, it is. Not slang but common parlance. It has a good feel in your mouth when you say it.

You saying the word with your accent will be completely different to me saying it with mine!

We should have a thread with different people saying that word in their different accents.

But, just so you’re clear, I’m not volunteering to begin …

[Paul-R]

It has to be said that The Off Topic Chat Lounge is the perfect place for such things. Go on, you know you want to!

https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

We positively encourage such posts there.

[ozfrog]

There's a lot of stuff in Diagbox! I wonder how much 'damage' someone could do if they had their minds set on it.

Now for the weird things that happened on this warm 38ºC day.

I cleared the faults and re-ran the Global Test.

• One BSI fault.
• Zero ECU faults.
• Zero Parking Aid faults
• One Radio fault

Interesting results, I thought, because I know that there's a faulty parking sensor. Anyway …

Live data

Yes, the battery voltage has dropped.
Whatever that 4992.00 is measuring, it was alternating between reading 4992.00 and 5000.00 fairly regularly.

Those failures appeared any time I tried turning the key

When I wasn't turning the key, the same screen showed this

I cleared the faults again and tried again with the Global Test.

• Zero BSI faults
• One ECU fault
• Zero Parking Aid faults
• One Radio fault

Why can't I get two Global Tests in succession with the same results? (That's not rhetorical, in case anyone wants to answer it!)

I cleared the faults again and re-tried the Global Test. Again..

I still didn't get the same results. But I have put the battery on charge overnight.

Ready for 39ºC tomorrow!