Is my timing out enough to cause no start? (1.4 Vti EP3 8FS) (C3 Picasso)

[Pulseammo]

So long story short, went to change my strut mount and now my engine doesn't start. Yeah... it's going to be one of those threads .

It's had an issue starting once two years ago and I was told the spark plugs were wet, so remembering that event I took them out this time, inspected / cleaned them, back in, no joy.

Got the mobile mechanic out and he checked the plugs again said they were in good condition, tried to start but he almost immediately said it sounds like the timing is wrong.

The timing has been called into question before, so I pulled the cam cover to see myself. Chain and guides look fine to me, but I wouldn't know anyway.

The cams are mis-aligned but only slightly as far as I would say? Is this enough to cause no start?











Many thanks if anyone can help.

Car is a C3 Picasso 2009 1.4 VTI EP3 8FS - Basically similar to a Peugeot 207 or a Mini Cooper S with (I think) an N14 engine (which is notorious for having it's timing chain destroy the guides, but mine seems to be good).

[Steve Walsh]

Cant see why timing would go out of sync when changing a strut, more likely disturbed a sensor or a wire. Needs a scan to identify codes

[Pulseammo]

Cant see why timing would go out of sync when changing a strut, more likely disturbed a sensor or a wire. Needs a scan to identify codes

To add a little more context: around 2 years ago I was preparing the car for an MOT, hopped in the car and turned the engine on just to make sure everything was working and turned it off after around 10 seconds. Next morning mechanic arrives to take the car, jumps in and it starts for a brief second and dies. He couldn't get it to start again, tried clear flood, etc - Eventually had it towed to his shop and managed to get it to start by taking the plugs out and drying them, he reckoned I flooded it by not letting it run.

Which brings me to the strut job now a few years later.

Before doing this job I repositioned the car quickly on the drive to get more room - worked on the car a couple of days (needed to wait for more parts), put everything back together and wanted to test drive and had the same thing - car started for a brief second and died out - that's why I'm not certain I've knocked something during the job or if it's another fault which has been lurking.

Currently the car will crank, and some of the cylinders sound like they want to fire but it just wont go. There's a smell of fuel... I'm pretty certain it's getting spark because you can hear combustion occur.

Mobile mechanics diagnostics computer basically wouldn't connect to the car, he claimed it was because the car was stuck in "economy mode" (I had left the key in it on single ignition for part of the job to keep the steering unlocked so I think that's why it's in that mode). Battery has been charged on a charger, has at least 70%.

I have one of those cheap scanners that will tell you codes, so I may give it a shot and see if there's anything.

Thanks for the help so far, anyone got any comments on my timing photos?

[Pulseammo]

So I've been all over the engine top to bottom and I can't find a single(*) sensor or wire ripped or out of place. I plugged in my scanner, it did connect but told me there's no codes and no IML active either.

I had to remove the cam sensors to remove the rocker cover to check the timing so they were in place. The crank sensor is over by the gearbox and it has undamaged (behind its plastic shield). Tested the cam sensor middle pins and they are getting 11.8v, should maybe check the crank sensor as well though come to think of it.

(*) I did find one sensor which is unplugged, but I'm certain it was like that since I've owned the car since it's been cable tied back, it's near the oil level sensor, anyone know what this is for:





I've been told I should compression test the engine and try with start spray to rule out fuelling. Also asked on a mini forum about the timing and was told the timing looks a little out but not enough to prevent starting. Was also told the chain looks to have been replaced since the guides are a new-ish design.

Edit: Actually - I'm starting to overthink things here, what if that sensor was cable tied due to a broken clip or something and it's somehow come loose and now just *looks* like it was disconnected on purpose. Anyone know what that sensor is, or how to find that out?

[Pulseammo]

Ah, the "sensor" is the crank case breather pipe heater I think?

I've seen pictures where the plug leads to the back of the intake manifold where there's a pipe which goes up to the rocker cover (the crank case breather pipe).

So not something that would prevent starting I assume.

[Gibbo2286]

Does the car have an immobiliser?

[Steve Walsh]

Do you have more than 1 key, if so try them all

[Pulseammo]

It does have an immobiliser, I don't have more than one key though.

It does crank, and it does splutter - so I think it is getting some kind of fuel and some kind of spark, would the immobiliser not stop one of cranking / fuel / spark?

In any event I need to wait for my rocker cover gasket arrives before I take another run at starting her again. The old one was brittle and cracked and broke in places.

Thanks for the ideas so far, I am checking through each one.

[wheeler]

Are you sure this isnt just flooded again??
Disconnect the fuel pump, let the pressure out of the fuel rail with the Schrader valve, Take the plugs out & spin the engine over for 10 seconds or so. Heat the plugs on a flame (blow torch cooker etc), re fit the plugs, Hold the throttle fully down & spin it over, have someone re connect the fuel pump whilst you are still spinning it over then let the throttle go. hopefully should fire up. Make sure you have good battery support so the engine is turning fast enough.

P.S. eco mode will not prevent diagnostic communication

[Pulseammo]

Are you sure this isnt just flooded again??
Disconnect the fuel pump, let the pressure out of the fuel rail with the Schrader valve, Take the plugs out & spin the engine over for 10 seconds or so. Heat the plugs on a flame (blow torch cooker etc), re fit the plugs, Hold the throttle fully down & spin it over, have someone re connect the fuel pump whilst you are still spinning it over then let the throttle go. hopefully should fire up. Make sure you have good battery support so the engine is turning fast enough.

P.S. eco mode will not prevent diagnostic communication

This is my current thinking, but I reckon I've washed the cylinders also though at this point so the rings have less seal and therefore not enough compression to start any more.

Do you know if pulling the fuel pump fuse is necessary on this car, or can I just hold the accelerator down for clear flood? I'm pretty sure holding the accelerator did disable the injectors when I tried it before.

So once I get my rocker cover back together I'll follow your steps, also going to put a bit of oil in the cylinder though to try and get the compression up a bit before I put the plugs in.

I was reading a thread on a BMW forum last night, apparently lots of people have this problem on their E46 where they'll take the car from the garage to their drive and then find it wont start again later.

It has to be this, it has to be when I repositioned the car quickly before I changed the strut, nothing else makes sense for it to just not start now.

Eco mode: Yeah, my scanner worked, no idea why the mobile mechanic's didn't. TBH I think it was because it was 4pm on a Friday.

[wheeler]

Do you know if pulling the fuel pump fuse is necessary on this car, or can I just hold the accelerator down for clear flood? I'm pretty sure holding the accelerator did disable the injectors when I tried it before.

Most petrol cars will go into anti flooding strategy if you hold the throttle full open before you switch the ignition on but disconnecting the fuel pump (after relieving the rail pressure) just makes sure.

Just be thankful you dont have an RX-8!

[Pulseammo]

Do you know if pulling the fuel pump fuse is necessary on this car, or can I just hold the accelerator down for clear flood? I'm pretty sure holding the accelerator did disable the injectors when I tried it before.

Most petrol cars will go into anti flooding strategy if you hold the throttle full open before you switch the ignition on but disconnecting the fuel pump (after relieving the rail pressure) just makes sure.

Just be thankful you dont have an RX-8!

I'd prefer the RX-8 because it'd be worth more . Don't those go up in value amongst all the rotary perverts, sorry, enthusiasts?

Ok so @wheeler is the winner of the thread I think?

So she finally started and I could finally test my strut mount work (first time I've ever worked on something like that) - no more knocks and noises from the road, so that's happy days.

Conclusion for everyone
As for the engine. I compression tested the engine with the worlds most terrible test kit (which almost ended up staying down the spark plug well at one point).

All cylinders were low compression, ranging from 65PSI to 75PSI dry... apart from the one closest the crank pulley (which was around 25psi - 30psi, but did come up to 50psi on one of the test runs).

I added oil to each cylinder, 3 squirts from an oil can and re-ran the tests with the cylinders making 95PSI, 125PSI, 125PSI, 125PSI - the third cylinder (from the left) made 175psi on one wet run, at this point I was having to use the adapter on the gauge that is like a bung you stuff into the sparkplug hole - so perhaps 2 and 4 could have made that also. 1 was consistently lower.

Spark plugs back in (I didn't even heat them) and engine fired immediately, I don't think it even had to crank over more than 1 revolution and it was going.

So I think that I have worn rings, I might take it to get leak down tested by somewhere with decent gauges to confirm though - I suspect given this no-start fault happened two years ago and not since then that the problem hasn't gotten any worse, and must have always been there since I've owned it.

My feeling is starting the car briefly to re-position for the suspension work and then turning it off did make it run rich, washed the oil out the cylinders while it sat for a few days, and caused me to have such low compression it wouldn't start.

Question
So... has anyone ever used one of those compression booster oil additives? They seem like they do work, I'd like to try and make the car as reliable as I can since I need to live with it, but I can't afford to tear it down to do a proper job.

I'm also going to drop the oil, I had a filter and new oil on hand anyway ready to go in, but I imagine there's now fuel in my oil so it's likely thinner, so that'll be this weekend's frivolities.

Big thanks for all the suggestions from everyone.

[wheeler]

The compression will have been low due to the excess fuel washing the oil from the bores. This can happen on a brand new engine too. I think you may be overthinking it. I bet it starts from cold no problem the next time you go to start it. On modern flooded engines you would be forgiven for thinking the timing belt has snapped when you first hear it turning over.
Can happen on any petrol engine regardless of model age or milage, some engines are more susceptible to it than others. The Citroen ET3 engine, the old Nissan Micras were really bad for it as are 6 cylinder BMW’s. Then of course the king of them all… the RX-8. Most owners of these know the score, if you ever start the engine dont ever switch it off within 5 minutes.

[wheeler]

Never heard of compression boosting additives, sounds like it may just be some thicker oil

[Pulseammo]

The compression will have been low due to the excess fuel washing the oil from the bores. This can happen on a brand new engine too. I think you may be overthinking it. I bet it starts from cold no problem the next time you go to start it. On modern flooded engines you would be forgiven for thinking the timing belt has snapped when you first hear it turning over.
Can happen on any petrol engine regardless of model age or milage, some engines are more susceptible to it than others. The Citroen ET3 engine, the old Nissan Micras were really bad for it as are 6 cylinder BMW’s. Then of course the king of them all… the RX-8. Most owners of these know the score, if you ever start the engine dont ever switch it off within 5 minutes.

I may repeat the compression test at some stage then. It's mostly the first cylinder being lower than the rest that has my knickers in a twist.

I am with you that the car will start from cold as it should next time, now that the oil film has been restored, what I was hoping was there was something which would help it from washing.

The products I'm talking about are things like "Engine Restorer & Lubricant" - https://americantechnology.co.uk/index.asp (Seems to be American market only)... just reading their website there it actually says "Mazda RX8 Hot Start Cure"

Or in the UK the only one I seem to be able to find is Rislone 4447 Compression Repair.

Normally I'd call this stuff snake oil but there's a couple of videos on youtube (including projectfarm, trust worthy enough I hope?) testing the before and after compression of the first product. No idea about Rislone.

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on things, make sure not to start the car without letting it get to temp, etc... kind of makes me lose trust in it that it does this though.