C5 X7 - Driving impressions from a new owner v older Citroens

[wurlycorner]

Had the c5 X7 on the road for a month now, thought I'd post up my thoughts on what I think of it in comparison to earlier models.

Mine is a 2011 3.0 V6 Exclusive tourer.
It's taking over (potentially) from a 2001 2.0 HDi 110bhp LX estate (that I have fitted upgrades to) and have had for ten years/over 100k miles (>220k on the clock total) and worked hard (heavy loads and towing as well as lots of 'ahem' sprited B road driving and long motorway trips).
I also have a 2003 MK1 V6 3.0 petrol exclusive SE (that has hardly been on the road since I've had it) and prior to that, Xantia Activa's and lots of CXs...

Firstly - looks wise, obviously it passes the snob test (looks). That's something the MK1 C5 never has done well (the MK2 C5 gets closer to, imo). The X7 is a good looking car that still gets admiring glances.

Obviously it has an impressive amount of toys, which is nice. But it's still frustrating it what it *doesn't* have in comparison to some 'luxury' cars of the same age - e.g. lack of Bluetooth streaming.

It definitely feels more 'luxury' although there are a few points on the interior that are a let down - the shiny plastic trim inside the door handles are not the most high quality looking/scratch easily and I think the 'soft' dash may be starting to curl up from above the top of the vent line on the passenger side???
I don't like the solid centre the steering wheel - I can handle that it doesn't spin (though it is a bit 'odd') but I don't like the corners on it - I find myself catching my hand on them as I twirl the wheel during manoeuvring.
I find the functions/options operation via the steering controls etc. not very intuitive and the cruise control particularly - if there's a way of just doing 'resume' then I still haven't found it (and if no resume, then why say 'paused' on the screen when you have dropped out of it?).
The heated seats are so much more powerful than the MK1 and the amount of adjustment and bolstering far improved, but I'm not convinced by the efficiency of the heating/ventilation system in comparison and the massage function is a waste of time.
Worst bit of the interior though, is the buttons on the steering wheel/NG4/centre lower console. I really don't like them. The plastic sheet/bubble design is awful. It feels cheap in comparison to a proper button and this kind of design is known to wear very badly over time. Awful design choice by Citroen and a step back from the MK1!

Tha power tailgate I had always thought was a gimmick on cars but (to my surprise) I am finding is actually quite handy when you come to the car with hands loaded etc or the boot is filthy as it stops your hands getting dirty pressing the open button.
Power boot but no gas struts on the bonnet seems like a very odd choice though???

Practicality wise it's not too bad, but nothing like as good as the MK1 C5. Good load bed length, but the lower roof line/tapered opening on the tailgate opening is very noticeable in comparison. There are things I have been able to do with my MK1 that I just won't be able to do with the X7 (MK2 would be even better of course!).

Comfort wise, the ride in the X7 is much smoother over the bumps (and my mk1 c5 has the 15" large sidewall tyres compared to low profile 18" on the X7). Surprisingly so. Genuinely impressed.

I'm yet to try the X7 towing my heavy car transporter trailer (because no towbar yet) but have fully loaded it up inside with cargo and once heavily loaded up, I prefer the way the MK1 feels - it just has less 'squish' when driving (I believe because the mk1 has so many fewer rubber bushes in the suspension setup compared to the X7?). And in general, although in many ways the X7 grips better (wider lower profile tyres) when it comes to the twisties I *much* prefer the MK1. It rolls a bit more, but I can properly attack bends in the MK1 and I know *exactly* what it's going to do. I can feel everything, it's neutrally balanced and I can just push it harder I think. The X7 in comparison I feel so much more disconnected through the steering and it both feels heavier and pushes the nose wide more easily?

Performance wise, I miss the manual (but that is a preference thing) and I like the low rev/low down grunt of the DW10, but honestly who can deny how comparitively smooth and incredibly well the 3.0 goes... It is just effortlessly fast. Seriously quick and just keeps pulling. Love it.

I'm not going to refer to reliability etc - the MK1 has been absolutely bullet proof and the X7 I am sure will not be, but it's too early to compare anyway.

So a mixed bag. Interested in others thoughts?

[aerodynamica]

Hi Iain, good review. I'm similar having had pretty much at least one of all the historic hydraulic Citroens, except SM and C5 1. I now have an early exclusive Tourer albeit with the lowly 2.0 hdi.

I have very similar experience to you in that the aspects i expected to dislike I actually do like such as the electric tailgate - honestly always considered it to be the laziest accessory- but the ability to open it at a distance while carrying lots of timber / building equipment is quite useful. I also agree about the lever of toys such as the heated massage seat etc but the surprising omission of some things. To me it's the lack of heated screen wash nozzles and lack of low wash level (even my xantia & XM had that).

Looks wise I find it good looking at the front and less so at the rear where I see it shares a lot with it's contemporary Ford focus. Nothing wrong with that just feel it lacks flair.

I thought I'd hate the non- hydropneumatic brakes but aside from having to change the dot brake fluid, I feel they're pretty good performing. Although I've had to change 3x calipers something I've never had to do on any LHM car.

The electric park brake is actually very good but I feel I'm counting the days until it packs in..

I agree about the soft buttons on the steering wheel, not sure what the thinking was. I do however love the fixed centre steering controls. They seem like a proper citroenesque design with the usual 'revolutionary yet flawed' solution. Just think it looks cool, people often comment on it and that's the sign of a proper citroen thing, and it's the thing that made me dislike the C6 steering wheel. That and the lack of C6 break. This is why I consider the hydractive C5X7 to be the last real citroen and not the C6 as some claim on YT videos etc. Real citroens always had a wacky/ practical balance that I feel the X7 does better. Just me though.

Ride quality: again, I've never really agreed that the C5x7 doesn't ride as well as the old Citroens. It's obvious to me they set it up differently with regard to its damping and spring rate. I think it rides better than just about all of the historic cits. The x7 has the softness and the vertical travel but it feels more controlled. It never seems to find any of the bump stops. My CXs and GSA were very prone to ploughing through the vertical travel to suddenly strike the bump stops on twisty back roads. Yet x7 feels like it has a real emphasis of the float sensation- especially on motorways. Also better at reducing vibration that the old, very soft riding cars like the CX and GS really don't.
Negatives on the hydractive 3+ for me really only that a speed bump taken at the wrong speed seems to cause the rear to be in stiff springs when it finds it.
I admire the simplified arrangement of hydractive 3+ over the LHM systems but of course that came out on C5 1. A single high pressure pipe to the rear and one to the front instead of the 4x front to rears and then all the rubber return pipes while also actually having better overall performance in ride/ roll control and self levelling seems like an unsung improvement to me. I mean, I'm still a massive enthusiast of the old set ups but the H3+ just seems such a rational development.

Other negatives are well known. The steering rack debacle is practically unforgivable in modern manufacturing. And I've never seen so much galvanic corrosion on anything let alone a car, in my life!

Aside from the other praises there's the double glazed side windows, quite well designed wipers, giant load space, and very nice seats. Not a good as XM seats but what are..

My only concern going forward is the possibility of unavailable parts. That and the real lack of cars available so this may be my first and last C5..

[wurlycorner]

Hi Graeme

Love that response, thanks for taking the time to write it - and you've picked some things I hadn't thought of/noticed; and some that I had and forgot to mention!

I'm not a fan of electric handbrakes tbf - I think they solve a problem that didn't exist and absolutely just seem like a maintenance nightmare waiting to happen... That said, it isn't 'annoying me' every time I use the car.

I agree entirely with you about the brakes. Having had a Mk1 c5 for a decade I'm used to those so hadn't mentioned - as you say, they work just fine, but the setup is crap from a reliability perspective compared to green blooded Citroens, where you basically never had to replace any part of the caliper/carrier system at all (slight exception on the Xantia fronts tbf) and when you did want to refresh the calipers up to/incl.CX they were so simple to overhaul at home. Fortunately the rears on the Mk1/2 C5 were the same caliper carried over, though they managed to introduce a dissimilar metal corrosion problem causing the calipers to mis-align with the discs

You're also dead right on the glazing - I didn't know about that before I bought the car, but it was noticeable.
I hadn't yet experienced that the washer fluid didn't have a low fluid warning... A very surprising omission!

I also agree about the parts supply. Something that hasn't been a problem on the mk1/2 but I know already is in some cases on the x7 (as well as the x7 being more parts hungry due to lower quality in some areas I think).

I'm not yet sure on the speed-bump performance on the x7 at the rear - haven't noticed that so perhaps I haven't done enough yet. I have noticed the difference with the 18's v 15's on the mk1 when it comes to first 'hitting' the speed bump, though - lets say you need to be more 'delicate' on the approach?
The mk1 always rode them ok, but the front suspension would always bottom out (long end of travel) immediately/with a very noticeable thump as you come off the top, which I never liked.

The Hydractive 3 system maintenance-wise is just superb in comparison to green blooded Citroens.
After 220k and 24 years, my mk1 C5 has needed the rear cylinder boots changing, one front cylinder breather hose to be cut and shortened/refitted (end had perished/split) and I had to get the control unit/motor overhauled 2 years ago (removed/sent off/refitted myself). All simple and very cheap fixes.
Other than that, it's completely original and never had a fault! The fluid has been changed, but that's because I had the power steering pump/rack out and the suspension pump. (nb: my V6 mk1 has on the other hand been more problematic due to suffering corrosion on the metal hydraulic pipes... but that's an isolated case).
Looking over the previous service history on the x7, I can see it's already had several suspension struts (completely different design to the mk1/2 c5) which suggests a backwards step.

I haven't yet got round to investigating the condition of the steering rack on my x7 - saving that 'surprise' for a little while...

The x7 will no doubt be my last Citroen for a 'daily driver' also - there's just no reason I see to buy one now at all, over another manufacturer. Current range aside (I hate SUV/Cross-overs) the lack of hydraulic suspension is a killer - topped up with the general cheapening of the brand and the appalling parts support.

[aerodynamica]

Yea Iain, the current and recent Citroen products don't do anything for me so I'm out.

I see what you mean regarding the electric park brake being a solution not really needed. I'll say that I do quite like the automatic setting and the hill start assistance (even with the auto box).

That's another thing: although it's quite old now, the 6sp auto Aisin transmission with its auto- adaptive and snow/ sport modes is still a good transmission. Very smooth, barely noticeable shifting. We'll, except for 4th on mine where it'll sometimes be felt but it's nearly 17 years old...

[wurlycorner]

Couple of other thoughts about it as I've spent more time with it, that don't make sense to me:
- Bonnet of Mk1 and Mk2 C5's has gas struts; X7 has gone back to a traditional prop?!
- Car has TPMS - and it reports 'actual' pressures to the BSI that can be seen via diagbox - but you can't display them in the car anywhere (presumably you just get a warning when they reach 'critical')?
- No internal release button for the powered tailgate on the Tourer (I have seen the mod that a member has done, in the YouTube video and like that - intend to do it!)
- The rear doors don't close with a satisfyingly solid 'thunk' when you shut them. They feel lightweight compared to the front and the previous gen C5's.

[Lenny]

- Bonnet of Mk1 and Mk2 C5's has gas struts; X7 has gone back to a traditional prop?!

I'd always assumed this to be down to the fact that the X7 bonnet is aluminium. It's a very lightweight panel so needs no assistance from gas struts.

- Car has TPMS - and it reports 'actual' pressures to the BSI that can be seen via diagbox - but you can't display them in the car anywhere (presumably you just get a warning when they reach 'critical')?

There's an option to display pressures on the dash available in the BSI settings in Diagbox. I've never tried it though.

[GiveMeABreak]

not very intuitive and the cruise control particularly - if there's a way of just doing 'resume' then I still haven't found it (and if no resume, then why say 'paused' on the screen when you have dropped out of it?).

Simple - press pause to Pause and press Pause again to resume.

Re: fixed centre boss = keeps the controls in the same place so you don't have to be a contortionist made of plastic trying to operate a control whilst turning the steering wheel. Steer with one hand whilst increasing volume or whatever.

Bluetooth I already mentioned that the X7 was released in 2008 in the UK, but equipment was designed and procured years before, so bluetooth calls are provided for on the NG4 unit that you have, but not the music streaming that was only starting to become more available in the mid 2000s in some selected vehicles on the market. PSA offered a Hands-Free kit as a separate unit to their RD4 system, but the NG4 Navidrive 3D was years in development and just did not have this implementation.

Worst bit of the interior though, is the buttons on the steering wheel/NG4/centre lower console. I really don't like them. The plastic sheet/bubble design is awful. It feels cheap in comparison to a proper button and this kind of design is known to wear very badly over time. Awful design choice by Citroen and a step back from the MK1!

Steering Wheel buttons covered to prevent crap from getting in and certain areas have raised bumps to help navigate options by 'feel'.

The Navidrive 3D is not a PSA design is was made by Harman Becker for PSA and similarly for BMW at the time and the large central know is a 'jog / joystick' interface used for turning but also moving around menus by pushing in the desired direction.

Don't forget the system was designed to make use of voice commands and these were a huge improvement over the MK II RT3 / RT4 Navidrive systems that could only use voice tags for navigation. The X7 Navidrive 3D provides far more voice command functions and has a training programme you can use to make it more useful. I used mine extensively for navigation and for phone calls and Media.

But the worst ever vehicle for steering racks! Never in my life have I ever had a steering rack problem with any other Citroen until the X7 which was on it's third rack when it left my ownership - a fundamental design flaw I suspect - either with the angle, materials or position or all three.

[aerodynamica]

Hi Marc, I was thinking about those rubbery feeling buttons on the fixed centre and wondered if perhaps they were made this way without separate buttons because of the airbag potentially turning them into shrapnel if it deployed..

[GiveMeABreak]

The airbag will only be in the centre boss, so when that flips up it won't interfere with the buttons - my current Aircross steering wheel has flush buttons and thumb wheels but no fixed centre boss.

I think that was just part of the unique overall 'design' of the X7, but I have to admit I never actually used all the buttons as it was too much to remember where everything was - and I did try to memorise via the bumps which controls increased / decreased or moved around in the menus. It was a bit overcrowded in the end and people often commented when night driving that they'd never seen so many buttons!

[wurlycorner]

I'd always assumed this to be down to the fact that the X7 bonnet is aluminium. It's a very lightweight panel so needs no assistance from gas struts.

Good thought - but the Mk1 / 2 C5 bonnets are also aluminium (and the X7 bonnet is bigger tbf, so probably weighs more than the earlier models).

There's an option to display pressures on the dash available in the BSI settings in Diagbox. I've never tried it though.

Interesting - thanks, shall investigate!

[wurlycorner]

Simple - press pause to Pause and press Pause again to resume.

Thanks. Interesting (embarrassing? ) that didn't seem intuitive to me - but tbf, I think that applies in general to the X7 compared to the Mk 1 / 2 - everything is less intuitive on it?

Re: fixed centre boss = keeps the controls in the same place so you don't have to be a contortionist made of plastic trying to operate a control whilst turning the steering wheel. Steer with one hand whilst increasing volume or whatever.

Yep - I think that's fine (though unusual and not the most attractive - it's quite a lump!). It's just the 'corners' of it that annoy me, as I catch them when turning.

But the worst ever vehicle for steering racks! Never in my life have I ever had a steering rack problem with any other Citroen until the X7 which was on it's third rack when it left my ownership - a fundamental design flaw I suspect - either with the angle, materials or position or all three.

Yep - I still haven't dared investigate that on mine yet (blissful ignorance reigns currently while I work through the more obvious issues).
I do know there's nothing in the (quite extensive) service history showing any rack replacement though...

[PaulC5]

I suspect gas struts cost a lot more and use more material than a manual rod and being heavier use a tiny amount of extra fuel over the car's life. So the rod is better for the environment and your pocket. The exercise in lifting the bonnet helps keep muscles toned.

[Paul-R]

The stupid thing about changing from gas struts, in the Mk1 and Mk2, to a simple rigid prop is that the Peugeot 508, which is based on the basic floorpan of the X7, has a gas strut!

[wurlycorner]

The stupid thing about changing from gas struts, in the Mk1 and Mk2, to a simple rigid prop is that the Peugeot 508, which is based on the basic floorpan of the X7, has a gas strut!

Basically, there is no obvious logical reason for a backwards step

[GiveMeABreak]

- Bonnet of Mk1 and Mk2 C5's has gas struts; X7 has gone back to a traditional prop?!

I'd always assumed this to be down to the fact that the X7 bonnet is aluminium. It's a very lightweight panel so needs no assistance from gas struts.

- Car has TPMS - and it reports 'actual' pressures to the BSI that can be seen via diagbox - but you can't display them in the car anywhere (presumably you just get a warning when they reach 'critical')?

There's an option to display pressures on the dash available in the BSI settings in Diagbox. I've never tried it though.

You won't get actual pressures displayed - end of. BSI's are shared across platforms and there are certain options that only apply to say Peugeot vehicles and not Citroen's - so be warned there are options that should NOT be changed from default entries for specific vehicles. This can lead to Christmas Coming Early......

Remember there is no undo option in Diagbox.