DS5 DPF Regeneration.

[andyandjulie]

Hi all.

Last week my DS5 auto had a light on the dashboard saying, "The Diesel Particulate Filter may soon be blocked" or words to that effect. My first thought was it needs a good high speed run to regenerate. But before I could do anything about it (I was stuck in traffic on the way home from work) the car went into limp mode. So not able to do anything constructive, but this is all new to me with the DS5, so not a clue really.

Upshot is that I had to pay a local guy 150 quid to clean the DPF internally. I would totally recommend Darren at "Drop The Box" the mobile technician that did the work if you are near Swansea, South Wales, very thorough and he's got all of the latest equipment.

How can I avoid a recurrence? I just had a very last minute warning that was virtually impossible to act upon. I thought that my usual drive home of 20 minutes of M4 would have been enough to avoid DPF blockages. My previous C4 never had a DPF problem in years of the same drive home. Not once. Darren test drove the car after with his laptop connected and told me that he'd made it regenerate, so there's not a problem with the car.

Is there anything I can do to help avoid it happening again? Is there any way of knowing when the DPF will soon need a regeneration. How can I make it regenerate?

Thanks

Andy

[tricoloured]

Hi Andy

Many on here including myself have added a small LED light to the drivers door mirror connected to the mirrors heating element as most Peugeot and Citroens with a DPF fitted turn on the heated mirrors and the heated rear screen when they start an active regeneration, I think it is to do with the extra load but not sure.

Then when you notice the light turn on your aware a regeneration is taking place and can choose to continue to drive untill the light is out, it works well on my 2018 Expert van as it still completes a regeneration whilst slow and in traffic in 5 to 6 miles.

It will not indicate a passive regeneration as this is unassisted by using the heat generated by a good run.

Here are a couple of pics of my Expert door mirror.

Cheers

Bobby

[RichardW]

There will be a reason why it didn't regen, how many miles has it done? There's nothing you can do to know when a regen is coming, and there's no indication (but see above!). Generally if you don't do excessive short stop / start trips the Pug/Cit DPF system will look after itself.

[tricoloured]

Hi

As Richard said there will be a reason, I had the same messages but no faults recorded but it turned out to be the additive tank wasn't working correctly.

I physically checked there was additive in the tank and the regeneration process was 'authorised' acording to the diagnostics but it wasn't injecting fluid, I re-initialised the tank and it started working again.

I think the issue may have been caused by the battery previously being disconnected and reconnected many times but not adhering to the 3 minute rule (not by me).

Unlikely this is your issue but Richard asked about mileage and I'm guessing he's thinking about the amount of additive or not in the tank as many will tell the tank it has been refilled to clear the fault but when the reserve has been used it's running dry which will kill the pump.

Bobby

[andyandjulie]

Hi guys, thanks for the informed input.

Bobby
It may be my eyes, but I can't make out your LED handywork in either photo. Is it the red/black pair? If so, it's very well done Can you elaborate, I like the sound of this. Don't understand the difference between active and passive regeneration? Can one of these be self initiated?

RichardW
23000 miles . I understand your comment "Generally if you don't do excessive short stop / start trips the Pug/Cit DPF system will look after itself." As I said earlier, my previous C4 HDI never ever had this problem in the 6 years I owned it doing exactly the same type of driving.

Bobby
On the advice of a trusted PSA specialist, and in light of a scary "mileage to not starting" countdown (and a huge bill for a new tank, and needing the car every day for work) I paid another reputable company £350 to delete the adblue system. That was about a year or so ago, and it passed the MOT in that time. The button on the dash that checks adblue remaing says there's loads of miles left in the adblue tank.

Look forward to any replies and thanks again..

Andy

[tricoloured]

Hi Andy, hope this helps.

An active regeneration is when the ECU gets involved, it's a similar process to a forced regeneration while on the move but not quite as aggressive. It does things such as injecting diesel on the exhaust stroke to fuel the fire in the DPF to burn off the soot collected.

A passive regeneration is at times such as a long run at 40+ mph when the heat generated from the normal combustion process is enough to raise the temperature of the DPF to burn off the soot collected without assistance.

The DPF additive fluid is added to the Diesel tank when you fill up and it reduces the temperature required to burn off the soot.

That's sort of in a nutshell but there is more to it.

Here is another picture of my Expert van door mirror with some more detail, the green highlights are where there were small round 'windows' in the mirror so I glued the LED behind one of them.
I used a white LED as I had some left from a project but it's a bit bright at night, maybe a coloured one would have been a better choice. By chance not design the LED is clearly visible to me in the drivers seat but can hardly be seen from outside the van.

Bobby

[PaulC5]

When the adblue was deleted, did they also delete the dpf additive system - if so then the fluid may not be being injected to the fuel tank and now allowing the dpf to block up due to the lack of passive regenerations. If it has been deleted and is not reinstated then you might end up having to keep paying for the dpf to be cleaned - or you could add the right amount manually each time just before you fill up with diesel.

Note that deleting the adblue system is probably an illegal modification but since the MOT does not test diesels for NOx then it will pass. You also must tell your insurance company since without doing this you will not be insured and when you do tell them they may not want to insure you. By not letting the adblue system work chances are it will not now work if you put back the software to original so you could be facing a lot of expense which you thought you were trying to potentially avoid. If you do not reinstate the adblue make sure you tell anyone you sell the car to. Adblue has a shelf life so any you have left may need to be replaced if you reinstate the system. In your place I would be going back to the 'reputable company' and be asking them to reinstate the adblue system at their expense and refund your £350 - they should not have done it and they should have given you advice it was not legal.

[andyandjulie]

Thanks Paul, I will check that with them on Monday. They certainly did not explain it as you have done.

Andy

[andyandjulie]

Hi Bobby

I like the sound of your LED modification. When I get five minutes I'll do that. IMO there should be some indication of the DPF regeneration for the driver. I've heard of other car brands giving a visual indication.

Thanks again.

Andy

[andyandjulie]

When the adblue was deleted, did they also delete the dpf additive system - if so then the fluid may not be being injected to the fuel tank and now allowing the dpf to block up due to the lack of passive regenerations. If it has been deleted and is not reinstated then you might end up having to keep paying for the dpf to be cleaned - or you could add the right amount manually each time just before you fill up with diesel.

Note that deleting the adblue system is probably an illegal modification but since the MOT does not test diesels for NOx then it will pass. You also must tell your insurance company since without doing this you will not be insured and when you do tell them they may not want to insure you. By not letting the adblue system work chances are it will not now work if you put back the software to original so you could be facing a lot of expense which you thought you were trying to potentially avoid. If you do not reinstate the adblue make sure you tell anyone you sell the car to. Adblue has a shelf life so any you have left may need to be replaced if you reinstate the system. In your place I would be going back to the 'reputable company' and be asking them to reinstate the adblue system at their expense and refund your £350 - they should not have done it and they should have given you advice it was not legal.

Hi again Paul

You've got me thinking..

When you say "did they also delete the Adblue additive system", what exactly is that? Do you think it possible that they mistakenly did this or might they have been looking for future work with my blocked DPF? How might I check for this mistake? Is it the EOLYS fluid or something else?

"or you could add the right amount manually each time just before you fill up with diesel" Is this possible, could you explain further?

"By not letting the adblue system work chances are it will not now work if you put back the software to original" I had all sorts of messages about the car not starting in xx miles, counting down, I was told that it was a faulty adblue tank and needed replacing at huge expense. This was offered as a permanent fix at 350.00. I had no idea of the full implications.

I've got to say that the company that carried out this work have a very good local reputation and were recommended by a PSA specialist. I felt confident that I was getting good professional advice.

Sorry for so many questions, but please just bombard me with all the relevant info. I'll figure it out somehow..

Thanks again, it's guys like you that make this forum what it is. I'm new here, but already appreciate the collective wisdom behind the scenes.

Regards

Andy

[Rp0thejester]

For me, I ain't reading everything above. Firstly FAP fluid, if it's full great, secondly rag the hell out of the car! Sitting in traffic won't do it! You can still over rev a car in 2nd and stay below 30mph. You can buy dpf cleaner or equivalent from Halfords and add it to your fuel tank

[GiveMeABreak]

Hi again Paul

You've got me thinking..

When you say "did they also delete the Adblue additive system", what exactly is that? Do you think it possible that they mistakenly did this or might they have been looking for future work with my blocked DPF? How might I check for this mistake? Is it the EOLYS fluid or something else?

"or you could add the right amount manually each time just before you fill up with diesel" Is this possible, could you explain further?

"By not letting the adblue system work chances are it will not now work if you put back the software to original" I had all sorts of messages about the car not starting in xx miles, counting down, I was told that it was a faulty adblue tank and needed replacing at huge expense. This was offered as a permanent fix at 350.00. I had no idea of the full implications.

I've got to say that the company that carried out this work have a very good local reputation and were recommended by a PSA specialist. I felt confident that I was getting good professional advice.

Sorry for so many questions, but please just bombard me with all the relevant info. I'll figure it out somehow..

Thanks again, it's guys like you that make this forum what it is. I'm new here, but already appreciate the collective wisdom behind the scenes.

Regards

Andy

One, a bad move in getting anything emissions-related deleted - it is illegal for a start to delete / cripple emissions systems as the vehicle will no longer meet the certification it was awarded when new, so let's get that set from the start.

There are 2 distinctly different systems that fo different jobs:

1) The SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) system treats the NOx in the catalytic converter by using UREA (Adblue) convert these to water and Nitrogen.
2) The Diesel Particulate Filter treats the particulate matter and traps these particles int he filter.

When the filter becomes full, as measured by the differential pressure sensor (upstream and downstream) the engine ECU will trigger assisted regeneration. Contrary to what has been said above, the PSA system unlike some Ford models do NOT inject diesel into the exhaust! The PSA system uses an Eolys additive that is supplied in a separate tank. Each time you fill up the amount of fuel added is determined and a suitable amount of Eolys is dispensed into the diesel tank.

The Eolys additive's job is to reduce the exhaust gas temperature required to regenerate the filter and burn off the soot from the usual 550° C to about 450°C. The engine ECU may also switch on consumer electrical equipment to increase engine load to get the vehicle to the required temperature, like the rear heated windscreen and mirrors, and may use the glow plugs for a few seconds as well as post in injection. There are multiple strategies used by the engine ECU which it can use as required depending on the driving conditions and the level of blockage / any interruption to the regeneration cycle.

These unscrupulous cowboys are out to make a buck - they must advise on their websites that it is not road legal to delete any of these systems for public road using vehicles - but I suspect they are not going to willingly tell customers this. This often leaves customers with big problems with their vehicles, especially second hand buyers who are left with the big bills to rectify this when they find the problems start happening. It really makes troubleshooting very difficult when dealing with this unnecessary additional problem.

It often involves re-mapping of the engine ECU and various other manipulation of the engine ECU configuration to do and this can cause problems going forward when there are problems - which can be as a result of this intervention.

DPF can occur if the filter is at end of service life (depending on driving style or conditions) as it will need to be removed and properly cleaned or replaced.
If it's well within service mileage, then it may mean that the engine ECU has tried to regenerate the filter and the driving conditions (short stop and start journeys, slow moving traffic) are not allowing this, so will flag a 'risk of filter clogging' message. Advice is to go for a longish spirited drive to allow the engine to reach the minimum temperature and to allow for regeneration to complete. Live diagnostic data will show the frequency of regenerations to give an idea.

The Adblue is totally separate and issues with this system can result from a clogged injector nozzle, caused by crystalisation of the Urea, which causes operational pressure problems and can damage the pump. The nozzle can be checked and cleaned. I always recommend the addition of an anti-crystalisation additive to the Adblue tank when topping up to help keep the system running smoothly.

So without specific fault codes (and I would have to doubt the reliability of getting any if the system has been modified or tampered with) it's going to be hard to point to specific causes.

[andyandjulie]

For me, I ain't reading everything above. Firstly FAP fluid, if it's full great, secondly rag the hell out of the car! Sitting in traffic won't do it! You can still over rev a car in 2nd and stay below 30mph. You can buy dpf cleaner or equivalent from Halfords and add it to your fuel tank

I totally agree with your old school sentiment. I've been trying that in 2nd gear. Cars are unnecessarily complicated. Thanks for the refreshing comment.

[andyandjulie]

Hi again Paul

You've got me thinking..

When you say "did they also delete the Adblue additive system", what exactly is that? Do you think it possible that they mistakenly did this or might they have been looking for future work with my blocked DPF? How might I check for this mistake? Is it the EOLYS fluid or something else?

"or you could add the right amount manually each time just before you fill up with diesel" Is this possible, could you explain further?

"By not letting the adblue system work chances are it will not now work if you put back the software to original" I had all sorts of messages about the car not starting in xx miles, counting down, I was told that it was a faulty adblue tank and needed replacing at huge expense. This was offered as a permanent fix at 350.00. I had no idea of the full implications.

I've got to say that the company that carried out this work have a very good local reputation and were recommended by a PSA specialist. I felt confident that I was getting good professional advice.

Sorry for so many questions, but please just bombard me with all the relevant info. I'll figure it out somehow..

Thanks again, it's guys like you that make this forum what it is. I'm new here, but already appreciate the collective wisdom behind the scenes.

Regards

Andy

One, a bad move in getting anything emissions-related deleted - it is illegal for a start to delete / cripple emissions systems as the vehicle will no longer meet the certification it was awarded when new, so let's get that set from the start.

There are 2 distinctly different systems that fo different jobs:

1) The SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) system treats the NOx in the catalytic converter by using UREA (Adblue) convert these to water and Nitrogen.
2) The Diesel Particulate Filter treats the particulate matter and traps these particles int he filter.

When the filter becomes full, as measured by the differential pressure sensor (upstream and downstream) the engine ECU will trigger assisted regeneration. Contrary to what has been said above, the PSA system unlike some Ford models do NOT inject diesel into the exhaust! The PSA system uses an Eolys additive that is supplied in a separate tank. Each time you fill up the amount of fuel added is determined and a suitable amount of Eolys is dispensed into the diesel tank.

The Eolys additive's job is to reduce the exhaust gas temperature required to regenerate the filter and burn off the soot from the usual 550° C to about 450°C. The engine ECU may also switch on consumer electrical equipment to increase engine load to get the vehicle to the required temperature, like the rear heated windscreen and mirrors, and may use the glow plugs for a few seconds as well as post in injection. There are multiple strategies used by the engine ECU which it can use as required depending on the driving conditions and the level of blockage / any interruption to the regeneration cycle.

These unscrupulous cowboys are out to make a buck - they must advise on their websites that it is not road legal to delete any of these systems for public road using vehicles - but I suspect they are not going to willingly tell customers this. This often leaves customers with big problems with their vehicles, especially second hand buyers who are left with the big bills to rectify this when they find the problems start happening. It really makes troubleshooting very difficult when dealing with this unnecessary additional problem.

It often involves re-mapping of the engine ECU and various other manipulation of the engine ECU configuration to do and this can cause problems going forward when there are problems - which can be as a result of this intervention.

DPF can occur if the filter is at end of service life (depending on driving style or conditions) as it will need to be removed and properly cleaned or replaced.
If it's well within service mileage, then it may mean that the engine ECU has tried to regenerate the filter and the driving conditions (short stop and start journeys, slow moving traffic) are not allowing this, so will flag a 'risk of filter clogging' message. Advice is to go for a longish spirited drive to allow the engine to reach the minimum temperature and to allow for regeneration to complete. Live diagnostic data will show the frequency of regenerations to give an idea.

The Adblue is totally separate and issues with this system can result from a clogged injector nozzle, caused by crystalisation of the Urea, which causes operational pressure problems and can damage the pump. The nozzle can be checked and cleaned. I always recommend the addition of an anti-crystalisation additive to the Adblue tank when topping up to help keep the system running smoothly.

So without specific fault codes (and I would have to doubt the reliability of getting any if the system has been modified or tampered with) it's going to be hard to point to specific causes.

Thank you for a very informative post that has broadened my knowledge considerably.

What is your background Marc? I have seen many of your previous posts and it is obvious that your knowledge of french cars is truly comprehensive. I'd hazard a guess that you are a retired time-served french car technician who used to run a dealership franchise. Just a potshot, hope you don't find my question intrusive and I'll understand if you don't respond.

Whatever, thanks again..

[andyandjulie]

Hi Andy

Many on here including myself have added a small LED light to the drivers door mirror connected to the mirrors heating element as most Peugeot and Citroens with a DPF fitted turn on the heated mirrors and the heated rear screen when they start an active regeneration, I think it is to do with the extra load but not sure.

Then when you notice the light turn on your aware a regeneration is taking place and can choose to continue to drive untill the light is out, it works well on my 2018 Expert van as it still completes a regeneration whilst slow and in traffic in 5 to 6 miles.

It will not indicate a passive regeneration as this is unassisted by using the heat generated by a good run.

Here are a couple of pics of my Expert door mirror.

Cheers

Bobby

Hi Bobby again

Can you point me in the right direction for a suitable LED for this modification? (an eBay link or similar) Sorry to be a pain but I know lots about bulbs but little of LEDs. Thanks.

Andy