C3 Picasso 2010 - help identifying source of oil leak

[PicassoPaul]

Morning all

I’m trying to solve an oil leak on my wives 2010 c3 Picasso.

I noticed oil around the sump on the timing belt side of the engine. So I’ve decided to tackle it whilst changing the timing belt.

Once I got the timing covers off and had a good look, the oil is everywhere, and difficult to find the source. Pulleys etc seem clean, so I think it’s been the wind etc flicking the oil around, rather then the pulleys.

There’s oil around the crank pulley area, although it was cleaner behind the pulley. I had thought it might be the oil seal behind the pulley (which I believe houses the oil pump?)

The oil is also up the front of the block behind the AC compressor. The bracket holding the compressor is covered in oil.

I’ve checked from above, and there’s no oil around the head gasket area. So the leak appears to be at the bottom end.

I’ve ended up giving everything a good clean, thinking that I can fit the timing belt and then run the engine for a minute, build up some pressure, and then look for fresh leakage.

Do you guys have any suggestions on where this could be coming from?

Should I remove the bracket holding the alternator and AC compressor and see what’s going on behind there? Is there anything behind there that can leak? Any seals etc?

VIN is VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] for the admins.

Thanks

Paul

[myglaren]

Error with the VIN.

[GiveMeABreak]

I've got is Steve - edited Post, thanks.

[CitroJim]

Failure of the crankshaft oil seal is the most likely I'd have thought... It'll be clear if it is when you remove the pulley ready to swap the cambelt...

Replacement should not be too difficult...

[RichardW]

That's the oil pump behind the crank pulley - I watched a vid about fixing just such a leak a while back, but I can't find it now! It was more involved than just fitting a new crank seal as I recall....

[CitroJim]

I'll be watching with interest

[shtu]

Failure of the crankshaft oil seal is the most likely I'd have thought.

That's my initial thought too.

It's a whopping leak by the looks of it, so cleaning up and taking a good look after it's been run a while is defnitely your best plan. On the photo it looks wet immediately below the crank seal.

Hopefully you're doing the aux belt soon too, 'cos that one is absolutely goosed.

[PicassoPaul]

That's the oil pump behind the crank pulley - I watched a vid about fixing just such a leak a while back, but I can't find it now! It was more involved than just fitting a new crank seal as I recall....

Yeah, I watched a video and it looks like a sump off job, oil pickup removed, pump off and replaced.

When I removed the crank pulley (which just slid off with a gentle pull, no puller tool required…. Which was unexpected) the immediate area surrounding the seal was clean, but then just beyond that it was absolutely caked in oil.

I’ve ended up giving the whole area a thorough clean down. I was getting up to the eyes in dirty oil and muck just trying to inspect it.

I’m ready for the new timing belt to go on, but wondering if I should just go ahead and replace the crank seal whilst I’ve got everything stripped off. Seems like the sensible thing to do. Seal isn’t that expensive or difficult to replace.

I’m also going to have another good look around the AC compressor to see if there’s any signs of leaks behind there.

[PicassoPaul]

Failure of the crankshaft oil seal is the most likely I'd have thought.

That's my initial thought too.

It's a whopping leak by the looks of it, so cleaning up and taking a good look after it's been run a while is defnitely your best plan. On the photo it looks wet immediately below the crank seal.

Hopefully you're doing the aux belt soon too, 'cos that one is absolutely goosed.

Aux belt is shocking isn’t it?

The replacement is on its way. Timing belt and water pump kit showed up on Saturday, but aux is taking its sweet time.

That whole area was quite wet, under the sump, and even onto the suspension arms. The leak started a few weeks back. Noticed some occasional spots of oil on the drive. It seemed to progress quickly though, and when I had the first proper look there was oil everywhere.

It’s had a good clean now, so will replace the crank seal and then keep an eye on it.

[shtu]

I’m ready for the new timing belt to go on, but wondering if I should just go ahead and replace the crank seal whilst I’ve got everything stripped off. Seems like the sensible thing to do. Seal isn’t that expensive or difficult to replace.

With a leak like that, and a crank seal costing about a tenner, I'd just get it done while it's all apart. It's only going to take an extra 10 minutes.

http://www.ecatcorteco.com/ are a good aftermarket part. A quick hunt suggests the right one is about £12 on eBay. (deliverately not posting my guess, use the catalogue)

[PicassoPaul]

Hi all

Just an update on this. After waiting for the weather to clear a bit, I managed to get a new crank seal in place and finished the timing belt install, and replaced that horrendous drive/aux belt.

Everything back together now and ready for a good test.

I’m just now waiting on a new replacement cartridge for the turbo, as all this fun work started when the car started puffing white/grey smoke, and then the power dropped. I had stripped out the turbo and found it was stuck solid. However, it appeared to be carbon build up on the hot side that was jamming the turbine. After clearing all of that out, the turbo spins freely. However, there’s still the smoke when accelerating. So I think despite there being no play in the turbo, the seal has gone on the exhaust side.

Once I get that fitted, I’ll give it a good test run, and keep an eye on the oil leak. Fingers crossed that’s resolved.

Next job is a leaking seal on the diff/drive shaft. I was replacing the outer CV joint during the summer and the drive shaft popped out enough to start leaking some oil. I pushed it back in, but think I must have damaged the seal in the process.

Some photos of the seal and timing belt job attached.

[CitroJim]

Good work Paul, watching with interest and fingers crossed all will be good on test

[PicassoPaul]

Ok, final update on the crank oil seal issue.

I replaced the Turbo cartridge, confirmed the seal was shot by all the oil on the turbine/hot side (photos attached).

Took the car for a good blast. Felt like 007 in a high speed chase with the smoke screen billowing out behind me as the remaining oil in the exhaust system burned off. That all cleared up after 10-15 minutes of hot running.

The car feels a lot nippier. In retrospect, I think the turbo was declining for a while and then eventually blew the seal and locked up from carbon build up.

Got home and parked up. Checked for oil around the crank pulley, all clear.

Stuck a length of wallpaper backing paper under the width of the car overnight to pick up any oily drips. All clear on the crank side. A little oil from the left hand side drive shaft seal. That’s on order, and a job for the weekend.

Also, the battery has died a death. How do these things all happen at the same time? New battery incoming today.

Hopefully get a good few thousand more miles out of it. I think this is on around 110k miles. What sort of mileage are you guys with the 1.6HDi achieving?

[kk13171759588]

Most likely oil leak points:

Camshaft oil seal (primary suspect): This is the most common problem. Due to its high position, leaking oil flows down the cylinder block, accumulating in the oil pan and timing belt area, making it appear as if it's leaking from the bottom. Now that you've removed the timing cover, focus your inspection on the camshaft oil seal.
Oil filter housing/cooler seal: This component is usually located on the side of the engine (near the alternator/compressor area). If the seal is worn, oil will flow onto the compressor mount and the oil pan below.
Oil pan gasket: Although you mentioned suspecting a top leak, a failed sealant at the oil pan seam is also a common cause.

Regarding your plan:
Do not remove the compressor mount: It's not necessary at this time. There are usually no seals behind the mount; the main leak points are either inside the timing cover (camshaft/crankshaft oil seal) or on an external accessory (oil filter housing).
Regarding the "short start test": Never start the engine without the timing belt installed! Doing so will cause the valves to strike the pistons, rendering the engine unusable. Correct Procedure: Thoroughly remove all oil stains -> Install timing belt and timing cover -> Start the engine and run it for a few minutes -> Turn off the engine and check.
Summary Recommendation: Replace the camshaft oil seal before installing the new belt (if leaks are found), this usually solves the problem. Also check if the oil filter housing is dry.

[CitroJim]

Ok, final update on the crank oil seal issue.

Excellent! That's a nice result Paul