Attention All Those With 'Classic' Cars - May 2024

[GiveMeABreak]

Have a quick watch of this and you may want to take part in the survey as it could mean changes to VED status and having a 'Q' plate assigned:

I just wanted to raise awareness of members with classic vehicles, who may wish to contribute to the survey, as it is time-limited.

The link to the info and survey is
Registering historic, classic, rebuilt vehicles and vehicles converted to electric

The call for evidence period began on 9 May 2024 and will run for 8 weeks until 4 July 2024.

[moizeau]

Thanks Marc, just posted it on the Z1 Owners Club UK

[Gibbo2286]

It was always the case that Q was allocated to cars of 'indeterminate age.' a lot of ex WD vehicles and imports fell into that category, much less likely now with everything centrally computerised and VIN numbered,
We saw, in particular, pre war Fords re-registered in the 1960s when all their documentation had disappeared/lost in the various local tax offices around the country.

[bobins]

https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for ... o-electric

"Foreword:
Classic and historic vehicles are a rolling testament to British innovation and the UK government is committed to supporting this sector. While the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) must carry out its duty to ensure road safety and protect future purchasers when modifications are made to vehicles, we are committed to exploring changes that will make it easier for keepers who adapt their vehicles to make sure they’re roadworthy and safe.

We recognise that technology is changing the way vehicles are being rebuilt and restored, as well as driving an increasing move towards converting older vehicles to electric. In light of this, the UK government believes that the time is right to review the existing policies and processes relating to how these vehicles are registered with DVLA.

There are many people and organisations with a range of expertise and a wide range of different views on these issues. The aim of this call for evidence is to tap into that range of experience, views and research to help us to identify areas of potential change."



I find the idea that the DVLA / SoSfT suddenly finds it necessary to consider classic vehicles in such great details a little odd
Look at the bigger picture - although the classic car industry may be worth £xxxmillions* to the UK economy (*- insert figure of choice !), the reality is the huge, overwhelming, vast number of classic cars are only used on high days and holidays. They don't cover high mileages each year. They don't make up a statistically important number when it comes to 'lost government revenues', or car accident numbers.
Why the concern over classic cars ? What dramatic change would a change in legislation actually look to achieve ? Is the safety of the public the main concern (badly restored cars or cars in a bad way) ? Are there valid statistics on the number of deaths or serious injuries from such cars ? If reducing serious injury or death from 'bad' classic cars is their ulterior motive, then I'd actually think the time and money would be better spent going after your average everyday 'dodgy motorist' - the ones that cares not a jot for speed limits, the ones that drink and/or drug drive, the ones that use false or cloned number plates, the banned ones, etc, etc.

Perhaps the threat of a 'Q' plate or the paperwork that goes with having a car assessed might put people off restoring a classic and so it'd be broken for spares instead. One less 'old' car on the road. But surely a government wouldn't be that manipulative..... would they ?

[Gibbo2286]

I very much doubt it's the government as such more likely to be some civil servant looking to make work.

[Stonehopper]

This subject has been posted on several clubs. In essence, it is ambiguous, as the wording can be translated in more than one way as the suggestion appears to condemn repair work, but elsewhere on the Gov. website it suggests repairs of a kind replacing original with like - is OK. It is contradictory.
I suspect this is a move to work towards making things difficult for vehicle owners owning 40+ year old vehicles. It is something that needs careful monitoring. The object will be to raise more money for government. Nothing to do with emissions - it's all about the money.

But as previously mentioned - what amount of extra money would that be? In comparison to the taxes taken in all other aspects of charges against road traffic, it is infintesimal. Jobsworths.

[GiveMeABreak]

I had moderated Derek's second post to try and remove the references to Governments etc. in light of our AUP, but the references to climate change are another debatable matter, so I've removed the post entirely now as it was going way off topic of the survey.

[Stonehopper]

Oh dear. I mentioned 'government'. Removed.
Was it considered 'hate speech'?
Was it harmful?
Was it so irrelevant?

'Bobins' makes a good point.

As a survey, it performs another data mining exercise. Should we be unconcerned?

The government are seeking evidence. Evidence for what? Evidence for changing some classic and historic vehicles from their original or age relate status to a 'Q' plate status based upon some ambiguously described remedial work. They appear to be wanting to fudge the definitions from like for like 'as original' repairs - to 'modified vehicle'.

This is the thin end of a wedge. Sow confusion - divide and conquer. One vehicle tax for ALL classes. Or maybe a higher level of tax for vehicles over a certain age. That would suit the hand wringers perfectly. It's not the extra money they want, they just want us off the roads.

I'll grant you the 'climate change' aspect might seem unrelated to the 'survey', but as it is one of the most key issues in the current 'spot-light', perhaps not so irrelevant.

[Stonehopper]

In the Executive Summary section linked to from Government in the original post from Marc, it states:

"The law states that every vehicle keeper must notify DVLA of any changes that are made to their vehicle (regardless of the age of the vehicle) which result in the particulars set out in the vehicle registration certificate (V5C) becoming incorrect."

Replacing an IC engine by fitting an electric motor and the subsequent batteries to power same, would indeed be a modification requiring a 'change of details' to the DVLA.
But replacing a section of rusted floor or bulkhead with 'as original' - No.

[xantia_v6]

Although it is good to be sceptical of all politically motivated proposals, in this case I can see some sensible reason.
The 'problem' that they may be addressing (and with some justification) is the 'Restomod' which is essentially a modern one-off or low volume vehicle using some components and the chassis number of a genuine old classic car. These creations often have much more powerful engines, modified chassis and suspension.

I did this myself to a series 3 E-type, upgrading the engine to a specification 15 years newer than the original (gaining about 40 HP) and converting the car from LHD to RHD. Now this was a very mild restomod.

In other european countries my E-type would be considered to be a modified vehicle. In Malta, the engine modifications would prevent it being registered as a classic vehicle, and in France, the RHD conversion (although it had been through an SVA process) prevented it from being registered at all. The rules of these countries basically say that a classic vehicle must be indistinguishable from the condition it left the factory, other than fair wear and tear. Those rules do not have a negative impact on classic car communities (and businesses) in those countries. I think that it is reasonable for the UK to apply similar criteria to the road tax exemption and MOT exemption.

The Q-plate is a highly emotive issue in the UK, but in my opinion just a vanity issue, as are age related registration plates. I come from a country where any plate can be transferred to any vehicle, regardless of age, and those who care enough can spend the money to buy a plate that suits their taste.

[bobins]

Although it is good to be sceptical of all politically motivated proposals, in this case I can see some sensible reason.
The 'problem' that they may be addressing (and with some justification) is the 'Restomod' which is essentially a modern one-off or low volume vehicle using some components and the chassis number of a genuine old classic car. These creations often have much more powerful engines, modified chassis and suspension.

In the olden days these were called Custom Cars, and they were a statistical irrelevance then as 'Restomods' are now.

I did this myself to a series 3 E-type, upgrading the engine to a specification 15 years newer than the original (gaining about 40 HP) and converting the car from LHD to RHD. Now this was a very mild restomod.

In other european countries my E-type would be considered to be a modified vehicle. In Malta, the engine modifications would prevent it being registered as a classic vehicle, and in France, the RHD conversion (although it had been through an SVA process) prevented it from being registered at all. The rules of these countries basically say that a classic vehicle must be indistinguishable from the condition it left the factory, other than fair wear and tear. Those rules do not have a negative impact on classic car communities (and businesses) in those countries. I think that it is reasonable for the UK to apply similar criteria to the road tax exemption and MOT exemption.

One wonders how France (and other countries) gain from excluding such cars ?

[Hell Razor5543]

So what happens when somebody (such as DHallworth) take one model of a car and then upgrades it to a higher spec model of the same car (such as a 2.0 Xantia Activa to a 3.0 Xantia Activa), making all of the changes required (such as upgrading the brakes) to keep the car within factory specifications? The changes are so correctly applied that when a factory trained technician compares the upgraded car to an original car they cannot find any differences of any type.

[mickthemaverick]

I have a feeling that despite meticulous detail in making the car to full factory spec you cannot change the vin which would then return incorrect parts info etc for the car and thus still be classed as a retromod!