Just about to take my 306 and put it out of it's misery:
I own a 306Dt on a P Plate with 89 on the clock. Previous owner was elderly and had missed 70K service-but had driven it very little. Since having it over a year it's had new cambelt, new set of glow plugs, and oil and filter changes as necessary Also had a new radiator on it as well.
But the car has always felt underpowered, and the turbo was kicking out a large amount of black smoke when it kicked in. Recently it's hit a brick wall at 3000rpm and was generally sluggish on the road.
Two days ago it picked up an ominous very loud rattle in 1st 2nd and 3rd, it's a rattle/creeking/croaning type of sound which fades around 2000rpm. I thought maybe turbo at first, but the noise can be duplicated with heavy braking out of gear and clutch down. So maybe cv joint? It's not louder in a turn either direction.
Yesterday the Turbo picked up a very loud whistle and the turbo pushdied. I took the intercooler off yesterday to have a peep. I found an air hose at the top had fallen off, so put that back on. But the entire area is saturated with oil-I mean it's covering all the hoses, down the back of the sump, and even around the gearbox. Took it for a drive and the turbo was a lot better-for about a mile.
Now it's whislting and whining, their is no turbo push at all, and it's smoking like a trooper at 2150 rpm-lots of black/white smoke. But the engine feels ok and it runs smooth enough at higher speeds-60,70, 80 etc apart from pumes of smoke.
I won't meniton the rear brake problems.
Any ideas-right now I think that i am looking at new turbo unless head gaket has also gone?
Thanks
Blag
306 Falling Apart -And now BLOWN TURBO?
Moderator: RichardW
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Blagarse Yank
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 22:13
- Location: Bahamas
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I am not a turbo expert but have an identical car which had no turbo boost at all when I bought it - turned out to be a hole in the back of the pipe going from the front of the intercooler to the fuel injection pump- it is meant to be pressurised when the turbo kicks in and this tells the pump to put in extra fuel - with the hole the pressure escapes and no extra fuel goes in.
Also had an other TD car a while ago which got a small hole in the exhaust and the whistling noise etc was really loud.
These two are easy to check for and may be more straight forward explanation to some of your problems.
On the other hand the smoke coming out the back does not sound good, and you should get it checked out - the smoke could be the injectors or pump needing overhaul - black smoke can be unburnt fuel.
if turbos do actually fail in operation they can do a fair bit of damage to the engine with broken bits of vanes flying about at serious speeds. A friend of mine had a ford pickup TD which the oil seals to the turbo went and it sucked in and burnt all the engine oil. He was driving about and the car started to rev up and tons of black smoke coming out the exhaust - pulled over and switched the ignition off - but engine kept going at full revs - retired to safe distance and this continued for a few minutes. Took the head off and two pistons completely melted..
So you need to get it checked out.
Regards
Michael
'96 306 TD 68k miles
'96 106 1.5d 90k miles
Also had an other TD car a while ago which got a small hole in the exhaust and the whistling noise etc was really loud.
These two are easy to check for and may be more straight forward explanation to some of your problems.
On the other hand the smoke coming out the back does not sound good, and you should get it checked out - the smoke could be the injectors or pump needing overhaul - black smoke can be unburnt fuel.
if turbos do actually fail in operation they can do a fair bit of damage to the engine with broken bits of vanes flying about at serious speeds. A friend of mine had a ford pickup TD which the oil seals to the turbo went and it sucked in and burnt all the engine oil. He was driving about and the car started to rev up and tons of black smoke coming out the exhaust - pulled over and switched the ignition off - but engine kept going at full revs - retired to safe distance and this continued for a few minutes. Took the head off and two pistons completely melted..
So you need to get it checked out.
Regards
Michael
'96 306 TD 68k miles
'96 106 1.5d 90k miles
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Blagarse Yank
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 22:13
- Location: Bahamas
- My Cars:
Michael,
Thanks for the feedback.
Don't worry-I'm not going to drive on regardless. I took the car out to work today to get a feel for the problem, and also to get some feedback here: Try and just get my ideas sounded out here-as there are at least two seperate problems.
But the amount of smoke spells disaster to me in LARGE letters[B)] And it will need to be looked at by an expert. Do Andyspares carry spare turbo pipe's etc??
Another reason for voicing up here was to avoid going to a local garage blind and ending up shelling out for uneeded work. Something that has happened to me previously, and sadly appears common occurence from what i have read.
I'm clearly just going to have to get it to a garage and get it sorted (it's a bit beyond me due to needing to be at work)
Also wanted to share with other owners-if you have these type of probs etc feedback definetly appreciated. If anyone can suggest a good place to put car into in the South East England I am all ears.
Finally - would rumble/knocking in 1st 2nd and 3rd gears be the turbo??
Regards
Blag
Thanks for the feedback.
Don't worry-I'm not going to drive on regardless. I took the car out to work today to get a feel for the problem, and also to get some feedback here: Try and just get my ideas sounded out here-as there are at least two seperate problems.
But the amount of smoke spells disaster to me in LARGE letters[B)] And it will need to be looked at by an expert. Do Andyspares carry spare turbo pipe's etc??
Another reason for voicing up here was to avoid going to a local garage blind and ending up shelling out for uneeded work. Something that has happened to me previously, and sadly appears common occurence from what i have read.
I'm clearly just going to have to get it to a garage and get it sorted (it's a bit beyond me due to needing to be at work)
Also wanted to share with other owners-if you have these type of probs etc feedback definetly appreciated. If anyone can suggest a good place to put car into in the South East England I am all ears.
Finally - would rumble/knocking in 1st 2nd and 3rd gears be the turbo??
Regards
Blag
I doubt it, the rumble is more likely CV joint/gearbox related. Having a gentle life and being on 89K, its very unlikely to be the turbo. First thing I would do is check ALL hoses for leaks. Then get a boost gauge on it, peak boost should be around 14psi at 3000rpm (Accelerator to the floor). How is the coolant level? Does it drop at all? Does the oil look ok, no sludge or mayonaise type deposits? The reason for all these questions is that this sounds more like a headgasket problem. When mine went, it was very smokey, had no go and occasionally misfired. 89K sounds about the right mileage for their midlife headgasket crisis too!!
Blag,
You don't say what colour the smoke is, this is VERY important to be able to isolate the problem.
Blue smoke means it's being burned, and is therefore either from the engine, or the air intake side of the turbo.
While smoke means it's just being vapourised rather than burned, and would indicate it's getting into the exhaust AFTER the engine, so it could be the exhaust side of the turbo leaking, or a gasket leaking at the rear of the engine ( rocker gasket leaking into the manifold, or head gasket leaking into the manifold ).
Have you checked your oil and coolant for issues ?
Also, bear in mind that any oil getting through the exhaust and vapourising will stay there for some considerable time. When my Xantia turbo went, it took about 100 miles of running to get rid of the oil in the pipe / silencer once the new turbo had been fitted !
You don't say what colour the smoke is, this is VERY important to be able to isolate the problem.
Blue smoke means it's being burned, and is therefore either from the engine, or the air intake side of the turbo.
While smoke means it's just being vapourised rather than burned, and would indicate it's getting into the exhaust AFTER the engine, so it could be the exhaust side of the turbo leaking, or a gasket leaking at the rear of the engine ( rocker gasket leaking into the manifold, or head gasket leaking into the manifold ).
Have you checked your oil and coolant for issues ?
Also, bear in mind that any oil getting through the exhaust and vapourising will stay there for some considerable time. When my Xantia turbo went, it took about 100 miles of running to get rid of the oil in the pipe / silencer once the new turbo had been fitted !
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Blagarse Yank
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 22:13
- Location: Bahamas
- My Cars:
Ross,
I think you are right about the CV Joint-I was able to pretty much duplicate the rumbling on heavy breaking on the drive back home.
First thing I did was check the oil (can't see any mayo at bootom of stick even after multiple dips) and the coolant (all seems rock steady-none missing)
Mbunting,
The smoke is both! The majority is black -great clouds of it if you put your foot on the throttle in 1st 2nd and 3rd, 4th is better and in 5th I was cruising back at 70 mph (Motorway!) with everything seeming ok and not a whisper of smoke. No rise in temperature on gauge either.
There is a fair bit of white in there as well-especially throttling out of corners. Far too much for my liking
There is zero Turbo asisstance-although it is whistling like no tomorrow. When I checked it last night the turbo was pulling slightly-and found the top hose had fallen off-I wedged it in very tight but since then it has no turbo at all!
Behind the rear of the engine, near the turbo it is plastered in oil and I mean severe-but the oil level is staying on the maximu??
Maybe I am not seeing something-it just seems so very strange that not one but two pipes to turbo have gone as same time as the CV joint, and the headgasket?? Does this sound possible?
Thanks for all feedback on this!
Blag
I think you are right about the CV Joint-I was able to pretty much duplicate the rumbling on heavy breaking on the drive back home.
First thing I did was check the oil (can't see any mayo at bootom of stick even after multiple dips) and the coolant (all seems rock steady-none missing)
Mbunting,
The smoke is both! The majority is black -great clouds of it if you put your foot on the throttle in 1st 2nd and 3rd, 4th is better and in 5th I was cruising back at 70 mph (Motorway!) with everything seeming ok and not a whisper of smoke. No rise in temperature on gauge either.
There is a fair bit of white in there as well-especially throttling out of corners. Far too much for my liking
There is zero Turbo asisstance-although it is whistling like no tomorrow. When I checked it last night the turbo was pulling slightly-and found the top hose had fallen off-I wedged it in very tight but since then it has no turbo at all!
Behind the rear of the engine, near the turbo it is plastered in oil and I mean severe-but the oil level is staying on the maximu??
Maybe I am not seeing something-it just seems so very strange that not one but two pipes to turbo have gone as same time as the CV joint, and the headgasket?? Does this sound possible?
Thanks for all feedback on this!
Blag
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Blagarse Yank
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 22:13
- Location: Bahamas
- My Cars:
the black smoke you are getting from the exhaust is down to incomplete combustion.
Several things, faulty injectors, air filter problem, faulty pump (incorrectly timed - i've had this), but the other is the head gasket, and you have just found this for yourself.
i'd try the new gasket first, then see if the turbo has gone.
Several things, faulty injectors, air filter problem, faulty pump (incorrectly timed - i've had this), but the other is the head gasket, and you have just found this for yourself.
i'd try the new gasket first, then see if the turbo has gone.
Well its not the easiest engine to do a head gasket change on. When I bought mine, the previous owner had literally just had the head gasket changed by a Peugeot specialist (not a dealer). It had come to almost £600, but this should be considered a maximum, you can get it changed a lot cheaper.
Admittedly, the bill included quite a few extras, the head was skimmed, a new cambelt and tensioner plus aux belt and tensioner. New head bolts etc etc. In other words, the job was done properly. £400 of the bill was labour though. I'm not trying to scare you, many places will do the job a lot cheaper.
Make sure the head gasket is replaced with the metal layer type one, these seem a lot more durable than the composite types.
Admittedly, the bill included quite a few extras, the head was skimmed, a new cambelt and tensioner plus aux belt and tensioner. New head bolts etc etc. In other words, the job was done properly. £400 of the bill was labour though. I'm not trying to scare you, many places will do the job a lot cheaper.
Make sure the head gasket is replaced with the metal layer type one, these seem a lot more durable than the composite types.
Hold on a minute, it still may not be the head gasket, and could be something as mundane as the manifold gasket. If this is leaking from the exhaust, then you'll get black smoke in the engine bay !
I would definitely get a compression test done, that will give a good indicator as to the HG condition.
I presume you've checked for
1) Bubbles in the coolant.
2) Coolant Loss ( no matter how insignificant ).
3) Oil level ( you say it seems the same ) - how about draining it, and putting some fresh 'thick' oil in. Examine the old oil for floating water.
I would definitely get a compression test done, that will give a good indicator as to the HG condition.
I presume you've checked for
1) Bubbles in the coolant.
2) Coolant Loss ( no matter how insignificant ).
3) Oil level ( you say it seems the same ) - how about draining it, and putting some fresh 'thick' oil in. Examine the old oil for floating water.
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Blagarse Yank
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 22:13
- Location: Bahamas
- My Cars:
Mbunting,
I'm not really set up to do compression test, or boost test on turbo etc-So I'm having to run this on my instinct.
I work every day into the evening-so I have had to double check everything during work. At present:
1) No bubbles in coolant
2) No discernable coolant loss-although I have not been using a ruler [;)]
3) Good idea about flushing old oil-I will do that and have a look see.
I'm not a diesel "expert" ie I have owned one for about four years. So no idea how bad a manifold gasket failure could be-certainly there is a lot of whistling in the engine bay. But I've never seen a manifold gasket failure do anything close to this on a petrol car-it usually just turns them into an F1 sounding car!
As for compression-there is zero power on hills, but on a flat it will cruise at 60/70 funnily in 5th it's not smoking.
Excuse my ingnorance but why would I have no turbo assistance with headgasket failure. Is it because low compression would compromise pressure setting to activate turbo?.
Thanks for feed back guys-I know a few of us only come here when we have aproblem-and to some it msut feel a chore to keep posting the same info to us un-enlightened diesel drivers-but it really is good to be able to share a problem and get some genuine feed back. The net at it's best? [;)]
Blag
I'm not really set up to do compression test, or boost test on turbo etc-So I'm having to run this on my instinct.
I work every day into the evening-so I have had to double check everything during work. At present:
1) No bubbles in coolant
2) No discernable coolant loss-although I have not been using a ruler [;)]
3) Good idea about flushing old oil-I will do that and have a look see.
I'm not a diesel "expert" ie I have owned one for about four years. So no idea how bad a manifold gasket failure could be-certainly there is a lot of whistling in the engine bay. But I've never seen a manifold gasket failure do anything close to this on a petrol car-it usually just turns them into an F1 sounding car!
As for compression-there is zero power on hills, but on a flat it will cruise at 60/70 funnily in 5th it's not smoking.
Excuse my ingnorance but why would I have no turbo assistance with headgasket failure. Is it because low compression would compromise pressure setting to activate turbo?.
Thanks for feed back guys-I know a few of us only come here when we have aproblem-and to some it msut feel a chore to keep posting the same info to us un-enlightened diesel drivers-but it really is good to be able to share a problem and get some genuine feed back. The net at it's best? [;)]
Blag
The turbo diesel in the 405 and later 306 are tough lumps...
I've given my turbo some abuse, and it still goes like a trooper.
The only thing that truly kills them, and any turbo really, is a blockage in the turbo bearing oil feed pipe. If that fails, it can be minutes to meltdown.
Running crappy oil for years and lots of short journeys where the oil is cold and the turbo is running lots means more bearing wear too.
I'd say if a pressure side air hose has come off, and oil is everywhere, then there is either a really poor bearing in the turbo letting oil into the compressor housing, or the oil is too pressurised, pushing past the bearing!?
I'd say if it's whistling and whooshing, and has no power, then the turbo is expelling to the atmosphere. Either the turbo compressor to intercooler hose has come loose, or the hose itself has split (found out this was an itermittent power-loss cause of mine till it finally split and a new one fixed it up!)...
The hose is about 30 quid by the way...
Since the hose dumps pressure relative to the split, the boost compensation plunger moves less the worse the hole. That simply means the more you boost the engine, the bigger the hole gets, and the worse the power gets. My car got worse and worse, and eventually I just heard a blip and a big woosh as the hose split big time. It still ran quite fast for the next 5 mins, but as the hole got bigger under quite hard driving the power got worse and worse!
I'd say though, that oil is what kills the hoses strength, so long term oil in the pressure side of the turbo and turbo to intercooler hose will have led to lots of problems.
I'd say that your engine hasn't been looked after, my 405 tdi at 145000 just got written off. It's replacement with 171000 miles is both stronger and cleaner and runs much better... it sustains boost for longer and everything.
It uses no oil, no water and doesn't smoke a bit even after being turned up a bit... Runs 1.1 bar at max boost from stock and is simply serviced at every 6000 miles.
Hope you find the cause and get it sorted though. These engines go and go if you look after them. I'd say it's worth sorting it and getting it right now, otherwise it'll be unreliable and cause even more damage in the future!
As for the rumbling, I have no idea really, could be anything knowing a Pug
Seya
Dave
I've given my turbo some abuse, and it still goes like a trooper.
The only thing that truly kills them, and any turbo really, is a blockage in the turbo bearing oil feed pipe. If that fails, it can be minutes to meltdown.
Running crappy oil for years and lots of short journeys where the oil is cold and the turbo is running lots means more bearing wear too.
I'd say if a pressure side air hose has come off, and oil is everywhere, then there is either a really poor bearing in the turbo letting oil into the compressor housing, or the oil is too pressurised, pushing past the bearing!?
I'd say if it's whistling and whooshing, and has no power, then the turbo is expelling to the atmosphere. Either the turbo compressor to intercooler hose has come loose, or the hose itself has split (found out this was an itermittent power-loss cause of mine till it finally split and a new one fixed it up!)...
The hose is about 30 quid by the way...
Since the hose dumps pressure relative to the split, the boost compensation plunger moves less the worse the hole. That simply means the more you boost the engine, the bigger the hole gets, and the worse the power gets. My car got worse and worse, and eventually I just heard a blip and a big woosh as the hose split big time. It still ran quite fast for the next 5 mins, but as the hole got bigger under quite hard driving the power got worse and worse!
I'd say though, that oil is what kills the hoses strength, so long term oil in the pressure side of the turbo and turbo to intercooler hose will have led to lots of problems.
I'd say that your engine hasn't been looked after, my 405 tdi at 145000 just got written off. It's replacement with 171000 miles is both stronger and cleaner and runs much better... it sustains boost for longer and everything.
It uses no oil, no water and doesn't smoke a bit even after being turned up a bit... Runs 1.1 bar at max boost from stock and is simply serviced at every 6000 miles.
Hope you find the cause and get it sorted though. These engines go and go if you look after them. I'd say it's worth sorting it and getting it right now, otherwise it'll be unreliable and cause even more damage in the future!
As for the rumbling, I have no idea really, could be anything knowing a Pug
Seya
Dave
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Blagarse Yank
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 15 Jun 2002, 22:13
- Location: Bahamas
- My Cars:
Thanks Guys,
The car is booked in to be looked at later today at a main dealers -relax it's the first of three or so quotes I will get beofre deciding who will fix it. But I will be good to get them to spend some time telling me what they think is wrong with their cars
Interestingly this morning I noticed that from start up the smoke is not so bad, and the power a little bit better for first minute-then smoke everywhere again? Smoking is more black then white at moment which I am taking as a better sign.
No contamination of oil or water, and no loss either. But it's burning oil somehow! Dealer seemed to think it might be an oil seal on the turbo?
Guess I picked a lemon with this one[xx(]
Blag
The car is booked in to be looked at later today at a main dealers -relax it's the first of three or so quotes I will get beofre deciding who will fix it. But I will be good to get them to spend some time telling me what they think is wrong with their cars
Interestingly this morning I noticed that from start up the smoke is not so bad, and the power a little bit better for first minute-then smoke everywhere again? Smoking is more black then white at moment which I am taking as a better sign.
No contamination of oil or water, and no loss either. But it's burning oil somehow! Dealer seemed to think it might be an oil seal on the turbo?
Guess I picked a lemon with this one[xx(]
Blag
Yes, the oil residues in the intake side are cold, and therefor don't move initially. However, as the engine bay warms up, and the air from the turbo becomes warm, this oil vapourises and gets pulled into the engine, and gives you the smoke ( which may have a blue tint to it ).
Shove a rag over the exhaust pipe for a few moments, and look for signs of oil.
Shove a rag over the exhaust pipe for a few moments, and look for signs of oil.