Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

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gaspaccio
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Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by gaspaccio »

Hi on my 2013 1.6 hdi I blanked the egr, replaced the intake manifold, and replaced the injector seals. The vehicle restarts fine (after a few misfires, normal) but I have a rattling noise whose rhythm varies with the acceleration, and a big loss of power while driving. Here are 2 videos if that can help you help me

https://streamable.com/lhxtdi
https://streamable.com/45o2ae

I don't know if it could be a problem with the injectors but I only cleaned them and changed the seals, I didn't even clean the head of the injectors, I don't understand where this strange noise could come from...

Maybe I put the manifold back wrong which would explain the loss of power but not the noise so I think it's the injectors? Can I disconnect the electrical connector of each of them to see which one is at fault?

The noise wasn't there before so it can't be the cam followers or the cam chain loose I didn't touch it.
I have no apparent leakage at the injectors after 30 minutes engine on.

Thanks for your help.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by GiveMeABreak »

We don't support EGR Blanking on this Forum (please refer to the FCF ACP), as it's part of the emission control system and is illegal to do in Europe. If you have done this, then you have to expect issues with the engine management system.
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by wheeler »

gaspaccio wrote: 27 Apr 2023, 21:46 Can I disconnect the electrical connector of each of them to see which one is at fault?

Not a good idea, If you have peizo injectors they can stop in the open position & fill the cylinder with fuel causing hydraulic lock.

Out of curiosity why was all this work done in the first place?
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Doo
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by Doo »

The EGR works to burn off some of the emissions from the crank case by routing them into the intake to help cool the combustion temperatures.

I would imagine the noise is the fuel detonating early. The injections on the HDi occur up to 5x per revolution, there a long explanation, but, some of your injected fuel is now burning out of sync, putting your pistons in danger of melting at high sustained speed, not to mention allowing more black smoke & illegal amounts of emissions....

It might be cheaper to undo the EGR delete.
Has anyone seen the plot? :?
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by gaspaccio »

Doo wrote: 28 Apr 2023, 17:16 The EGR works to burn off some of the emissions from the crank case by routing them into the intake to help cool the combustion temperatures.

I would imagine the noise is the fuel detonating early. The injections on the HDi occur up to 5x per revolution, there a long explanation, but, some of your injected fuel is now burning out of sync, putting your pistons in danger of melting at high sustained speed, not to mention allowing more black smoke & illegal amounts of emissions....

It might be cheaper to undo the EGR delete.
Well many people blank the egr all the time without any issue so I'd be surprised, but everything is possible yes. EGR is counter productive and a total non-sense though and only do bad things to engines. At least peugeot ones :)
Anyway many people having the exact model I have, blanked their egr without any problem. Some had to reprog their engine. But yes I will try to un-blank it to see if it changes something, thanks for this good suggestion

wheeler wrote: 28 Apr 2023, 10:04
gaspaccio wrote: 27 Apr 2023, 21:46 Can I disconnect the electrical connector of each of them to see which one is at fault?

Not a good idea, If you have peizo injectors they can stop in the open position & fill the cylinder with fuel causing hydraulic lock.

Out of curiosity why was all this work done in the first place?
I blanked the egr to avoid future problems. Then logically I had to clean the inlet manifold but preferred to replace it with a new one. I also had some minor injector leaks (1.6 hdi engines are known for this) so I replaced the seals. I did these 3 operations at the same time, don't know wich one caused my problems...

I have ordered an injector test kit to see if gasoil returns are fine. And as suggested by our friend above I will probably un-blank the egr while waiting for my amazon order to arrive.
Concerning the inlet manifold I dont think it could cause these problems (maybe the loss of power but not this weird noise) so I guess it's either the egr or an injector...
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MattBLancs
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by MattBLancs »

Sorry, EGR does not have anything to do with crank case emissions, two separate systems.

EGR:
Exhaust gases fed into inlet at idle and low power, steady state cruise conditions. Purpose is to add a volume of oxygen free gas into the mix. It does nothing to the benefit of the engine making power but isn't aiming to do so. Volume of gas is absorbing some of the heat from combustion, lowers the temperature in the cylinder and so means less NOx is generated.
EGR systems generally disliked by anyone who has seen inside the intake manifold of an engine equipped with the system as the exhaust gases also bring small quantities of soot with them.

PCV system, positive crank case ventilation system is a valve and connection to inlet from the crankcase, commonly from top of cylinder head/ camshaft cover.

Piston rings are not completely sealed, tiny bit passes by them in normal operation (and A LOT bypasses them in abnormal, worn out , operation!) This would pressurise the crankcase if was sealed. If open to atmosphere instead
(A) unburnt hydrocarbons tends to stink, noticible in the cabin
(B) counts to vehicle "emissions" and so generally not good to dump to atmosphere. Instead routed to intake where burnt in the engine deals with the smell/unburnt stuff.

Unfortunately, most PCV also allow oily vapours to be carried through to intake.

In combination PCV resultant oily intake = ideal for EGR borne soot to stick to. Soot covered surface ideal for oily vapours to settle on. Repeat forever over thousands of miles gives the gunked up intake people find so objectionable. Personally I think we should blame the PCV system (short of an effective filter/separator to eliminate the oily content) equally to the EGR. If intake was not sticky then soot would not accumulate!

2013 1.6 HDi would be the 8valve version, I think, can anyone confirm? In which case revised clamping arrangement and I thought this meant no more leaky injector seal problems that plague the earlier 16v DV6
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by wheeler »

Theres no way blanking the EGR valve is causing this noise.
And yes EGR makes a proper mess of the inlet tack.
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by gaspaccio »

@MattBLancs, thanks for all these details, yes my engine is 8 valve and theoretically they solved the leaking injectors problem after 2010 but I found some of my injectors were leaking at their base so I decided to replace all the seals. While I was doing the work I decided to blank the EGR and replace the inlet manifold too so my engine can breathe better.

@wheeler, that's what I think too. But Matt made me doubt about it :) while waiting for the injectors return tester I've ordered, I was planing to remove the blanking plate this week-end, but I'm afraid it will be useless, considering all the disassembly to do. Well I'll probably remove it, just in case.
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by Paul-R »

When I had a problem with an injector on our 8V 1.6 BlueHdi 308 I borrowed a leak off tester from a mate in the trade but couldn't find a connector that would fit.
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by wheeler »

gaspaccio wrote: 29 Apr 2023, 11:28 @wheeler, that's what I think too. But Matt made me doubt about it :) while waiting for the injectors return tester I've ordered, I was planing to remove the blanking plate this week-end, but I'm afraid it will be useless, considering all the disassembly to do. Well I'll probably remove it, just in case.
Put it this way, is the noise there from immediate cold start up? On cold start up the EGR valve would be fully closed anyway till it warms up a bit.
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by MattBLancs »

Sorry if making you doubtful!

Put it another way: if EGR working normally then expect no noticeable change between EGR blanked or functional. As standard it only operates at low load as previously described, so only has a negative effect if stays open when it is supposed to be closed - i.e. heavy acceleration+ EGR staying open = less power and usually lots of black smoke. But obviously blanking would have masked that - and it's opposite to what you are seeing.

Much as it pains me to recommend filling your new intake with crud, I'd re-enable the EGR as it should make no difference and keeps you road legal. It's worth bearing mind the crud we see accumulated is often say best part of a decade's use, so it's not like these things are strangled in a few miles.
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by gaspaccio »

@Paul-R yep I4m waiting for the kit I've ordered to arrive.

@wheeler yes the noise is present as soon as I start the vehicle. Power is fine until I reach around 3000rpm I guess

@MattBLancs, no problem my friend I was kidding. I'd remove the blanking plate if it is the source of my problems, but if not I will let it as is. There is no way MOT can spot it so it's fine for me. I am going to remove it though to see if it makes things back to normal
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by Doo »

MattBLancs wrote: 29 Apr 2023, 00:30 Sorry, EGR does not have anything to do with crank case emissions, two separate systems.

EGR:
Exhaust gases fed into inlet at idle and low power, steady state cruise conditions. Purpose is to add a volume of oxygen free gas into the mix. It does nothing to the benefit of the engine making power but isn't aiming to do so. Volume of gas is absorbing some of the heat from combustion, lowers the temperature in the cylinder and so means less NOx is generated.
EGR systems generally disliked by anyone who has seen inside the intake manifold of an engine equipped with the system as the exhaust gases also bring small quantities of soot with them.

PCV system, positive crank case ventilation system is a valve and connection to inlet from the crankcase, commonly from top of cylinder head/ camshaft cover.

Piston rings are not completely sealed, tiny bit passes by them in normal operation (and A LOT bypasses them in abnormal, worn out , operation!) This would pressurise the crankcase if was sealed. If open to atmosphere instead
(A) unburnt hydrocarbons tends to stink, noticible in the cabin
(B) counts to vehicle "emissions" and so generally not good to dump to atmosphere. Instead routed to intake where burnt in the engine deals with the smell/unburnt stuff.

Unfortunately, most PCV also allow oily vapours to be carried through to intake.

In combination PCV resultant oily intake = ideal for EGR borne soot to stick to. Soot covered surface ideal for oily vapours to settle on. Repeat forever over thousands of miles gives the gunked up intake people find so objectionable. Personally I think we should blame the PCV system (short of an effective filter/separator to eliminate the oily content) equally to the EGR. If intake was not sticky then soot would not accumulate!

2013 1.6 HDi would be the 8valve version, I think, can anyone confirm? In which case revised clamping arrangement and I thought this meant no more leaky injector seal problems that plague the earlier 16v DV6
I misquoted, but what I meant was both are allowed into the combustion chamber.

As an aside, when I rebuilt my wife's C4 engine, the inlet was almost choked with the black mess. It got properly hosed out with high pressure :-D The EGR was immaculate, which surprised me as my wife like's to tootle along, whereas I tend to wring its neck :-D

I just completed some work on a DV6 engined Foooord :puke: (a HATEFUL brand which somehow managed to take all the good bits you find on the PSA & change it for inferior sh!te, such as a bracket holding the DPF can be disconnected from the gearbox ONLY by removing the DPF from the engine & flexi! I may have cut a slot into one of the bolt holes, meaning if anyone is changing the clutch in future, they won't "have to"remove said DPF. They even removed the bleed bladder for the fuel so starting after a filter change is a bl00dy nightmare, just STUPID!! :evil: ). Anyway, their woeful cars aside, the engine was free from soot, but blowing out oil like it was free. Someone hadn't changed the PCV so I did & had to install a new rocker gasket. I can't be sure how much other leaks there are, but I cleaned the engine & got rid of around 95% of the oily mess. I can't tell yet if the new rocker gasket is leaking, but there's evidence of oil n the back of the cover near the injectors. I'm gong to have to clean that too & keep an eye open.... I need a white dipstick with an orange grip, but can't seem to find one #-o It's part of the upgrade (warranty on the replacement turbo requires a host of new parts, including pick up strainer which does NOT have a dipstick tube).

Anyway, I wonder if I should perhaps look into getting a catch can & route the rocker cover breather through it for our Citroens & friends F f f Fooorrrrd :puke: (sorry, I detest them :missile:
Has anyone seen the plot? :?
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MattBLancs
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by MattBLancs »

I wondered about a catch can too, but it's such a direct run out the cam cover straight to the intake pipework on a DV6 that there's no easy way that I could think of to intercept and direct to can and back again. Thought I would end up recreating the air filter to turbo hose complete - oval at one end and sharp 90° into turbo at the other, that I decided not to worry about it instead!!


Sorry, was not meaning to pick fault, more I read what you'd put and did 2+2=5 and thought I'd jump in to clarify. :)
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Re: Weird noise and power loss after work done on my 1.6 hdi

Post by gaspaccio »

I wish I have your knowledge guys. At least we are ok to say these DV6 engines have many defaults. Here in France PSA has a good reputation though, the competitor Renault has a worse one so I let you imagine what Renault's engines look like :)

I was wondering, since I am planning to remove the blanking plate, and make a test to see if I still get the noise, is it possible to start the vehicle with all the air box and hoses (all the stuff you remove to get access to the EGR) ? It woult avoid some assembling/disassembling if I put back the plate in the EGR.
Well while writing this I think it is not possible since the turbo entry would be open to the air...