307 2.0 Hdi won't go into third gear

[clydeowenp]

Hi,
Firstly I apologise if there's already a thread on this, if there is I couldn't find it. Car is a 2002 307 Rapier 2.0 Hdi with 5 speed gearbox which I think is an MA5. There was no horrid noises, just parked it up one night and when I drove it next morning no third gear, all other gears work fine so not the clutch. I've taken out the trim inside and the air filter and battery box to get to the linkage and cables and all seems well. Linkages not seized, loose or damaged and cables operate smoothly. When I try to engage third the lever doesn't seem to go far enough forward, no grinding or crunching but also no reassuring clunk conforming it's gone into gear. Tried moving the selector lever on the gearbox with linkages and cables disconnected but still won't go into gear. I used as much force as I dared but don't want to cause any more damage. I suspect that something has broken or come adrift and is blocking it from going into third gear. When I try to engage third there is solid resistance but no noises. Gearbox oil level was checked recently and there are no oil leaks.
Is this a common fault, car has done about 128,000 miles? Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it could be and if parts are still available? A used gearbox will cost upwards of £150 on ebay plus postage or fuel to collect, then there's no guarantee how long it will last, especially if this is a common fault.
I don't want to spend a lot on it as I intend to sell it now I have the 307cc. If it's going to cost too much I'll probably break it for spares which would be a shame as it's a good reliable car. I wouldn't mind if I was keeping it but I don't want to spend time and money that I may not get back when I sell it. If anyone has a good gearbox, at a reasonable price, or a scrap one I could rob for parts I would be interested.
I intend to try and take the gearbox out in the next few days, weather permitting, Some diagrams of the inside of the gearbox would be helpful as I only have the Haynes manual which doesn't cover gearbox repairs. I desperately need a workshop manual that covers all models including the cc which isn't covered in the Haynes manual. Any ideas where I can get one would be much appreciated.
Regards Clyde.

[MattBLancs]

Hi, sorry no definite solution, but few clarifications, thoughts and questions:

Your 2.0 HDi will be a BE4 gearbox (ma is the smaller engined petrols)

Not aware of any common faults, this is first failure like that I've heard of. Gear cables most often snapping is commonest issue, other than that seems a decent enough gearbox.
Used on lots of Peugeot and Citroen models so plenty of choice of second hand gearboxes. Will vary gear ratios so perhaps easiest to seek out a matching 307 2.0 HDi.

Note the BE gearbox has been around since the eighties and can be cable change, rod change. Clutch operation can be cable or hydraulic. So few permutations to be aware of.

I would not bother attempting to dig into the gearbox itself, just swap to another box complete. If only selling the car then it's probably worth a good hard think about it it's worth your time and effort to swap the box - sensibly you would likely change clutch at same time whilst it's apart. Yours is a 90 bhp I think being 5 speed (think the 110 / 136 had the six speed?) And on that basis think also means no dual mass flywheel (DMF) - if my theorising is incorrect and you do have a DMF then again if keeping the car would be a consideration to change that at same time too.

However, neither new clutch or DMF are going to make a sensible difference to the car's value - so would be £100 + £300 (clutch kit and flywheel costs respectively) that'd you get no more money back from.

At which point it needs a good think about if you instead sell as is "spares or repairs" or carry on with your plan to fix it.





Or if like me, would likely want to fix it purely for the enjoyment of solving the problem - then come back to me and we can talk about our common condition

[Gibbo2286]

Check the cables carefully, the ends of the outer can slip out of the clinched bit and let the outer slip in and out instead of moving the link.

[clydeowenp]

Hi, Thanks for the reply. I've checked the cables, with them disconnected the gear lever moves into all gear position. With the cables connected the gear lever will not move far enough forward to go into third, like something is blocking it, goes into first and fifth fine. If I disconnect the cable I can move the selector (the one that looks as if it's bent with the ball on top to locate the cable) into first and fifth but not third. It only moves about half travel which makes me think something inside has broken or come loose and is blocking it from moving full travel. I tried as much force as I dared but it was really solid and I didn't want to do any more damage.

[clydeowenp]

Hi, Yes, you're right it is a BE4/5, my mistake. I was going by the photos of the top mounting in the Haynes Manual and the one they show as MA looks like mine. Think they've got them the wrong way round!

Mine is 90bhp but I don't if it has a DMF or not, won't be changing it anyway if I'm selling as it works fine.

I know cables can cause problems and linkages can wear and pop off (as the one on my BX did in Central London!) but the only weakness I know of is they can seize if the oil gets too low or moisture gets in.

Nice to know this isn't a common problem, I've read several posts on various forums about problems going into third but usually caused by cables or abuse. Didn't want to get a used box if it's a common fault as replacement may soon develop the same fault.

It's also showing an ABS fault which could be expensive, especially if it's the ABS unit. I'll get the PP2000 on it in the next few days and if its something simple, like a sensor, I may take the gearbox out and investigate. I doubt new parts are available and if they are they'll be expensive so I'm hoping something has come adrift and will be an easy cheap fix. I'll let you know when (if!) I find the fault.

I agree, at what point do you decide it's not worth doing and scrap it? I think I'm on the borderline of this as I have a lot of other jobs to do. I have 5 cars but only 2 are running and both have faults, 307cc recently developed an ABS fault so that needs attention. If it's not a quick, cheap, easy fix I'll dismantle it and sell the parts on ebay. It may take longer but I'll get more money than selling the complete car for spares or repair. Kids next door (8 & 10 years old) love taking things apart and helped me dismantle my Xantia when I scrapped it. They're good at taking things apart but not so good at putting them back together!

[DEVON DOGG]

Personally now with the stupid and ridiculous costs of vehicles I see no harm in replacing the box on your 307 if it is shot. I view it as a good investment .
My priority is going on holidays and I have been in the same situation with my 250K Pug Partner 2.0 HDI I don't want to spend out on cars so I have replaced the worn clutch /cambelt /brakes and tyres something in the past I would have possibly scrapped . Now I say if its not rusted then mend it .

While I am not fully in depth with the 307 as Matt I have done a fair bit of work on the 307 as my daughter had a blue one I did all the work on that car and quite enjoyed it

[clydeowenp]

Hi Devon Dogg,

I enjoy doing the work but at my age (over 60!) I find motivating myself is the problem, once I get started I usually think "that wasn't so bad, what was all the fuss about!"

You make a very good point about the ridiculous prices of cars, brought my 307 and 307cc 4 and 3 years ago respectively, both from small dealers in London. Both are diesel, both were taken in part exchange, and both were cheap because older diesel cars don't sell in London!

I have a spare BX gearbox and a Xantia TurboD gearbox which I believe are BE gearboxes, linkage is different but I'm hoping the internal parts I may need will be the same.

Last night I found and watched a U Tube video showing the strip down and re-building of a BE4 gearbox, was from a 207 but looks the same as mine. Person doing the strip down didn't seem to have as good a selection of tools as I have and how how he tackled some parts of the job made me cringe! Looks fairly simple so I think if he could do it I should be able to, only thing I could see that needed special tools was a press was needed to change the bearings. There's a slight whine on overrun in some gears but not bothered about that. Bearing and seal kits are available on ebay but cost about £200 so bearings won't get changed, will probably change input and drive shaft seals just to be safe.

Watching the video gave me the confidence to attempt the job and also an idea of where the problem could be. Selector shaft has various springs and plastic bits on it which he damaged trying to remove it. Selector lever (on outside of gearbox) slides into the selector shaft and is retained by a roll pin. He overhauled the gearbox because it was whining and the bearings did look worn and damaged. I think my problem is probably with the selector shaft so I won't need to dismantle as far as he did and, hopefully, I'll be able to see the problem quite quickly. As I said I hope parts from one of the other gearboxes may fit if mine is damaged but I doubt I'll be that lucky! No horrific noises when the fault appeared, just drove off one day and it wouldn't go into 3rd gear so I'm hoping one of the plastic bits is worn or broken.

I have rebuild several gearboxes before, usually building a good one out of two knackered ones,, Not something that experts recommend but parts are often not available and with the ridiculous price of parts or a recon gearbox what else can you do? I've usually had a manual to help me but can't find one that covers this so video was helpful.

Was going to take the gearbox out today but I have to do it outside and it was raining. Hopefully tomorrow will be dry and not too cold and I can at least get the gearbox out and possibly stripped. Person who made this video brought new bearings, seals, a bracket and complete selector shaft with roll pins and nylon bushes. Don't know what country he was in or how long ago but must have cost him several hundreds of pounds. I won't be going that far, only paid £425 for the car so could easily spend more than that on a recon gearbox or spares to rebuild mine, bearings and seals are £200 so dread to think what the shaft is!

Thanks for your reply, I'll let you know how I get on.

Regards Clyde.

[Peter.N.]

Manual boxes very rarely give problems which is one reason why I have never had an auto. Manual boxes are not to complicated, I have worked on many in past years but they are much more difficult to get out with the engines being round the wrong way. I wouldn't worry about your age, I still do my own repairs at 84 - slowly mind you . I have a cam belt to fit in the very near future but motivation is the problem.

I don't know what could have happened to 3rd to jam it, the gear is engaged by sliding the synchro hub on to it, so I would think it would be something broken. If it goes into 4th OK then unlikely to be the selector mechanism. Did it happen while you were using the car or after parking it?

Peter

[clydeowenp]

Hi Peter. and everyone else who replied.
I'm encouraged that you still do your own repairs at 85, well done, hope in another 20 years I'll still be able to! I also have a problem with motivation and what used to take me a Saturday morning now takes all weekend!
Fault occurred after the car had been parked overnight. Drove off the next day and the first time I tried to select third it wouldn’t go in.
Finally took the gearbox out, only took me a year to get around to it, then it took me several months to get around to dismantling it. Once dismantled it remained clamped in the vice (see Photo) with me occasionally looking at it and having a fiddle. I couldn't see anything obvious and had several, like minded, friends look at it but they couldn't see anything either. Initially I thought it was a selector mechanism fault but couldn't see anything obvious. Next stage was to look at the third gear synchromesh mechanism so had to remove the main shaft. Unfortunately, this meant removing reverse gear, then the main and primary shaft and the selector shafts and forks have to come out together, easy if you're an octopus! I don't have a puller suitable for removing the bearing so had to improvise. Warmed it up with a heat gun then managed to lever it off with screwdrivers, tyre levers and some metal spacer blocks. Once the bearing was off third gear and synchro hub just slid off and revealed the problem (see photos). Hub was mangled and twisted out of shape and showed signs of overheating, presumably caused by my attempts to get it into gear! Aluminium from the hub had picked up on the cone and was stuck to it (see photo). Now I know where the pieces of aluminium I found in the bottom of the casing came from.
I have a spare BX19 RD gearbox and a Xantia 1.9 Turbo D gearbox, clutch, mounting and linkage are different but I hoped the internal parts were the same. I dismantled the BX gearbox and as I expected gear ratios were different but synchro hub was the same. Unfortunately, the large C shaped spring on the BX hub was missing so I took the one off my damaged hub. I found the pieces of the old spring on the magnet, nice to know it did its job, had to use my original gear and cone as the cone is attached to the gear. Managed to remove the aluminium from the cone with a sharp chisel and some wire wool. I've test assembled the gearbox, without sealer, to check it goes into all gears and, so far, all seems good. Hopefully when installed it will work and not be noisy.
I do need some help to finish the job, there's a black plastic oil deflector (see photo) which fell out as I separated the casings, not sure how it fits. U tube video says the small spout, on the end of the deflector, fits into the hole in the housing, which goes through to the fifth gear housing (see photo). There's no way the deflector I have will fit that way round and in that hole. It will fit upside down (as I've fitted it in the photo) but the video clearly shows the deflector fitted in the hole. Person who made the video said to make sure the spout on the deflector fits in the hole. Video was of a 206 or 207 gearbox (can't remember which) so maybe that makes a difference. I'm not sure how important this is but it must be there for a reason so I don't want to damage the gearbox through oil starvation because I assembled it wrong! I would also appreciate some torque settings for primary and secondary shaft nuts, reverse shaft bolt and gearbox casing bolts.
Finally, thanks to everybody who replied to my original post with advice and comments, hope somebody will find this post useful. If anyone has any ideas or theories on how and why this happened, I'd be very interested to hear them. As I said in an earlier post, there was no noise or any other indication that anything was wrong. I parked the car and when went out in it next day it wouldn’t go into third gear
I don't think this gearbox has been apart before because the way the shaft nuts are staked looks like it was done at the factory. I think it could be the original, in which case it's done 128,000 miles, or possibly its a factory reconditioned unit.
Regards
Clyde.

[MattBLancs]

Fantastic update and well done!

On the plastic component, I'd try both ends of it into both ends of where the gearbox casing halves receive it, it's very distinctive shape on one end so hopefully a similar distinctive recess is visible in one half or the other!

[Peter.N.]

Well done that man! I haven't had a gearbox in that many pieces in many a year except for my sons Ford ranger, he lost 5th on that initially I said no but eventually agreed to 'have a look at it' if he got it out and put it on the bench which he and a mate did, it was very heavy having the transfer box bolted to it as well.

I was very fortunate as when I eventually managed to separate the two gearboxes several pieces of metal fell out which were all the parts of the thrust washer which retained 5th gear on the shaft, I managed to get one an fit it and reassemble the the boxes, it worked fine but the reversing light switch didn't work any more fortunately he was so pleased he could drive it he didn't mind. Its probably the last gearbox I will do but I was in my 80s then.

Strangely enough the first gearbox job I ever did was on my '39 Ford prefect in 1956 that also was a broken thrust washer this time retaining 2nd gear it only had three gears and very little power so going from first to top was almost impossible unless you were going down hill, also if you select reverse with the washer broken 2nd gear slides down the main shaft and drops down a step which jams it in reverse. If you took the floor out you could take the cover bolts off, lift the cover up enough to just get a couple of screwdrivers in and lift and slide the 2nd gear back up the shaft.

Anyway, congratulations on that job there are not very many 'mechanics' that would attempt it now.

Peter

[clydeowenp]

Hi Matt,
Sound advice, that’s exactly what I tried to do. Problem is I was trying to locate oil filler tube, that’s’ what its called not oil deflector as I called it, in the wrong place, Doh! In my defence the U Tube video I used to help me was slightly out of focus and at the wrong angle. I couldn’t see clearly the exact location it was removed from. The rebuild didn’t show the installation of the tube because the camera battery died. When video restarted the casing was already installed and there was a warning on screen to make sure the tube was correctly located in the hole. I can see now if its not located it will be squashed when the casings are bolted together and it will be distorted or broken and will not do its job. Tube fits perfectly where I thought it fitted but was upside down and I couldn’t see how it would stay in place when the casings were bolted together.
I have service box 2013 on VMware Player which opens in windows XP. I’ve been trying to get it to open for several weeks without success but managed to get it to open over the weekend. I found an exploded parts diagram which confirmed I had the tube upside down but didn’t show the location. Rebuild diagram didn’t show location either, but had the warning about making sure the tube is located in the hole. There was also a picture of the tube located in the hole That’s when I realised, I was trying to locate it in the wrong hole, no surprise it wouldn’t fit! I couldn’t work out where the other end fitted so I fitted the casing loosely and shone a torch through the hole. Having found the correct location, I eventually found the correct orientation by trial and error. Now I can reassemble the gearbox, hopefully tomorrow. Hopefully I won’t make any mistakes and won’t have any bits left over! I want to make a cradle to fit on my trolley jack to safely lift the gearbox into position. That done, I hope to fit it before the weekend, weather permitting.
I’ll give another update after the test drive and hopefully it’ll work and not be noisy.
Regards,
Clyde.

[clydeowenp]

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the kind comments but I can’t take all the credit. Had a lot of help from a series of short U Tube videos. This gave me the confidence to tackle the rebuild. I was surprised that the job was easier than I expected for a relatively modern car, and didn’t need numerous special tools. Seems manual gearboxes haven’t changed much over the years, just have a few more gears. I also have a serious problem with motivation these days. Once motivated, what used to take me a Saturday morning now takes all weekend!
I’ve solved the problem of the oil filler tube location (see post above) and have the torque settings, so now I can finish the rebuild.
My first gearbox rebuild was a 1964 Triumph Vitesse 6 with overdrive. I brought it from a scrap yard to upgrade mine which didn’t have overdrive. Fitted it and the synchromesh was shot. Took it out and rebuilt it with parts from my original gearbox. I was lucky enough to have a dealer workshop manual which came with the car. This was very detailed and made the job much easier.
Worst gearbox rebuild was a Renault 18 Turbo. Not because it was difficult but because I made a mistake which caused a catastrophic failure! I didn’t read the procedure properly and missed a warning and a ball bearing fell out during assembly. This ball bearing fits in the housing between the fifth and reverse selector shafts. This ball bearing sits in a notch in either the fifth or reverse selector shafts and locks one shaft so the other can move. This prevents fifth and reverse being selected together and locking up the gearbox. Worked fine for a few months then stopped one day and couldn’t move as gearbox was locked up. Tried moving between forward and reverse or several minutes trying to jolt it free without success. Eventually, out of frustration revved the engine and dropped the clutch and BANG! Car moved forward but sounded like someone had thrown a handful of nuts and bolts into the gearbox and no fifth gear! I had to drive it like that for several months as it was my only transport to work. I had a gearbox from a donor car with knackered synchromesh and, luckily, managed to salvage enough parts to build a working gearbox. Much more careful during assembly this time and used thick grease to hold the ball bearing in place and checked several times to make sure it hadn’t fallen out.
I’m not a trained mechanic and learned all I know from reading manuals watching others and asking questions. Must have driven people mad over the years asking questions while they’re trying to work! I’ve been taking things apart since the age of 7 or 8 years when my father started showing me how to use tools. I’m sure he regretted that many times as he had to put things together that I’d taken apart. He taught me how to wire a 3pin plug, change a fuse and rewire a fuse in the consumer unit. Made me look very clever when we did it in science at school.
Two boys next door (aged 9 and 10) remind me of me at their age. Their dad is a keen motorcyclist and they often help (hinder!) him when he’s doing a job. They often take things apart and hide them when they can’t put them back together. They often come round when I’m doing a job and want to help and ask questions. I got them to dismantle the BX gearbox which they thoroughly enjoyed and hopefully learned something.
I was thinking the other day, we spend a lifetime gaining knowledge and if we don’t pass it on to the next generation its lost when we die. This seems an awful waste and many skills are being lost because they’re not being passed onto the next generation. I’ve read several times that manual gearboxes will soon be a thing of the past with the switch to EV’s. Most driving schools only teach automatic now so, in time, new drivers won’t be able to drive classic cars as most are manual. New mechanics won’t be able to repair manual gearboxes. Automatic gearboxes are so complex now only trained specialists with a multitude of special tools can repair them, just a few things to think about. Mum was 93 when she died, I’m 66 now so hope I’ve got a few more years here yet!
I’ll never buy or drive an electric noddy car, thankfully, petrol and diesel cars are unlikely to disappear from the roads during my lifetime!
Keep well, stay safe and keep up the good work.
Regards Clyde.

[MattBLancs]

Thanks Clyde, interesting back story

There's lots of folks still tinkering with early 1900's cars so I'm like you, hopeful the internal combustion engine cars are still viable for good while yet.

Electric cars have pros and cons (and they are not the "perfect" answer as is the general narrative) but some how they don't "draw me in" and as far as I know there doesn't seem to be many who are tinkering with them yet.

Big worry for me is if taxation is used to "encourage" us out of petrol/diesel making all these uneconomic

[Peter.N.]

For the 'precision' rebuilding of gearboxes my main tools were a heavy vice, an assortment of steel pipes and fittings and a large hammer and amazingly enough in spite of the correct clearances and movement, mine all worked.

I used to modify Vauxhall boxes to get the right ratios for my diesel conversions. I scoured the breakers for Vauxhall overdrive boxes for diesel conversions. The standard boxes had to close ratios so the car wouldn't pull away without a lot of clutch slip. The source of my Perkins 4/108 engines and gearboxes was scrap Bedford CA and CF vans, all the bell housings were the same so I could mix and match. I removed the original gears from the main shaft and the lay shaft and fitted and fitted the van gears and layshaft which gave much wider ratios. I then disconnected the reverse inhibiter circuit and wired it to a relay in the revers inhibitor. so overdrive wouldn't operate in reverse - which does them no good at all, I then had the gear lever top switch so I could switch overdrive in or out as I changed gear, this gave me a choice of 8 gears theoretically but actually only five as the torque was to much in first so it slipped but 7 was good.

This was mostly to get the noise level down by having the option of higher gears thus reducing the revs. I did about 10 in various cars, then I drove the CX diesel and never needed to do another one.

Peter