BX/Xantia 1.9TD Starting problems

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vanny
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BX/Xantia 1.9TD Starting problems

Post by vanny »

Hi folks, got a possibly major problem. Got pretty much everything sorted to get the car MOT'd but there a few stoppers. Firtly there is a light but steady hydraulic leak from around the octopus area, need to investigate a bit better. Secondly the rear arms are a little weak, shown up while having 17" alloys with low profile 205mm tyres on, there catching and rubbing. The arches havent been 'cropped' so i will probably put the 165's on for the MOT and crop the arches, then do the arms at a later date. Givent hat there only just catching im guessing i'll get away with it, thoughts?
Well this is the most important one, she runs like a dog when started up!
Spews out white smoke, maybe with a blue tinge, does smell like oil maybe just diesel (im good at this arent i!) doesnt seem to be using oil, but i havent been monitoring it that close. Im thinking that maybe the vlaves havent been correctly ground in after replacement (only the inlet on 1'st cylinder was replaced). But i cant figure HOW that would let oil out? the seals seemed pretty okay but i dont remember changing them, maybe that the problem? Any suggestions, or ways i can check?
thanks
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

White smoke - not being water - from a TD, is liky to be the turbo hot side seal leaking engine oil, especially if a greasy fat spot builds up under/rear to the exhaust pipe. Diesel fuel would evapourate.
As she runs like a dog, I'm with you it's fuel.
First suspect is certainly glo's or the timer, next in line is pump timing.
Leaking valves would down the comp almost certainly to non-start situation, as a diesel runs 3x a petrol comp, and needs most of it to start at all at slo cranking.
Russell
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Post by Russell »

Hi,
I have an XM that started running very rough, and vast amounts of white (unburnt diesel fumes). The timing belt had slipped, so I recommend you check this asap, cause mine let go while idling on the way onto the ramp in a garage, and got turned off within 10 feet and 3 seconds: I got away with it, but the knocking noise was pistons and valves kissing.
Best of luck.
Russell
jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

I don't think its starting on 4 cylinders. This could be a compression problem (ie likely valves) or possibly a dud glowplug or 2 or perhaps an injector.
When I got my TD 2 glowplugs had failed. It would still start reasonably but smoked badly and ran roughly for a while when things would improve.
If a valve is not shutting properly (ie incorrect clearance etc) the engine will not fire on that cylinder but I that part of the unburnt fuel that has not settled on the cylinder walls will be pumped into the exhaust and will come out the other end as white smoke. I know that if i don't heat my Td properly and try and start it there is a puff of white smoke.
If a valve is only marginally open it is possible that as the engine warms and the aluminium expands more that the steel valves that the valve seats properly and the engine runs correctly.
It would be interesting to know the compressions but this is not easy unless you have the correct kit. I suppose it could be worthwhile trying to start it from cold with one glowplug disconnected and see if you can isolate the problems to one (or more) cylinders. At least you know the history of each cylinder. - ie start with no 1.
This is becoming a lifetime project isn't it! Just think what you could have been doing if you hadn't found BX's!
jeremy
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Post by pete_wood_uk »

If it gets more and more dog-like to start, the longer it's been left, then when my Xantia did that, it got tracked down to an air-leak in the injector return piping. There's various soft hoses that join the injector returns up, with a plug on the last one. Check carefully for leaks. If there's any hint that diesel's coming out, then there'll be air going in.
No, I didn't fully understand the mechanism by which air in the return piping screwed up cold starting, but it did...
Cheers
Pete
Dave Burns
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Post by Dave Burns »

The injector leakoff pipes are connected to the injection pump return pipe, a leak in any of the returns allows the fuel in the delivery tract to run back to the tank, pulling air into the pump through the leak.
All though the fuel inlet to the Bosch injection pump is relatively high up on the pump, inside the pump, the lift pump outlet emerges into the pump body very low down, so as soon as a leak of this kind springs up, when the engine is stopped the fuel in the injection pump gets syphoned out, if left long enough the fuel will fall to a low enough level to prevent it reaching the high pressure cylinder in the distributor head, then you have a non starter, priming is then required to refill the pump.
Dave
philhoward

Post by philhoward »

Sorry to hijack your thread, Vanny....(by the way, my money's on glow plugs)
I've not started my air-leaking Xantia for about a week now, so all the leak-back that is goign to happen, has.
Last time I did this and looked inside the fuel filter, it was about 1/3rd full. Given the way gravity works, will this be the level by air leak is at?
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Post by edd001 »

have it been sitting for a while. i had a mondeo derv and it had been sitting for about 6 months.
when i started her up she too was smoking white so i gave her a blast down the road and after about 1 mile she cleaned up and that was the end of the white smoke.
could be as simple as this or as some of the others have said.
good luck
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Post by Dave Burns »

No phil I don't think so, on level ground the syphon should keep going until the filter is empty because there's nothing to stop it, if it does stop it may be that the leak has temporarily ceased due to contraction, if air can't get in, fuel can't run back.
If you were parked on a slope with the nose pointing downwards then the remaining fuel in the filter could be at the level of fuel in the tank.
Parking nose down on a slope while in this state will reduce the syphoning effect and on a steep enough slope can prevent it all together, parking nose up will do the opposit causing the pump/filter to drain much faster.
Dave
vanny
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Post by vanny »

Im not convinced about the glow plugs (managed to chack number 2 but ran out of time, No2 was fine) i've had duff glow plugs and on one 'heat phase' they tend to be stuborn to turn and spew black. This turns okay but has difficulty running. The chasis hasnt driven by its own power for a couple of years, the engine had done over 10k between july and december, but since then the whole top end has been rebuilt due to a stuffed valve as a result of very bad timing!
will try the leak off pipes and test the rest of the glow plugs friday. Will also fill up the tank with nice clean fuel!
vanny
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Post by vanny »

thinking though, IF the stem seals are stuffed then i guess this would allow some oil to dribble back down the stem of the valve and into the chamber? thus it could be oil burning off?
I want to take her for MOT but am scared that revving her to huge amounts its gonna do harm and not good. i hate diesel emmision tests, they scare the witts out of me!
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Vanny -
If engine oil seeps into the combustion chambers - it produces BLUE smoke - wether a diesel or petrol.
But in a diesel it will be "considered" fuel in the combustion process, and in severe cases cause run-away.
If you can see & smell the white(-ish) smoke is defo not water, then it must be fuel. This also fits with engine running like a dog.
Remember a diesel is very sensitive to timing issues, meaning it would have severe starting troubles if valve timing is out, because of the high compression needed.
But it may still start on injection pump offset, and then run bad.
A comp test is not easy to do on a diesel, but it sure would ease down your mind to know, as then valve timing by far could be excluded.
Have you tried the coldstart timing arm manually ? - this may give you a hint.
The glo-timer could have a number of problems, sitting for long out of service. same with the plug cables/connector eyes.
Check the voltage on each tip (not cable) of the plugs, you should have very close to 11V, when glo is timing.
Next - unscrew cabling to each plug, and test each plug with ohm meter. The reading should resemble a short circuit, meaning each plug has max 1 ohm resistance.
X-ing my fingers you find a simple problem. Best of luck.
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Post by DoubleChevron »

Hey Vanny,
I hope this isn't a rude question... But why on earth have you ripped a 16valve motor out of such a nice looking car and fitted a deisel [:0][:0]
Is it a car the bloody 205 crowd has gotten too ??
seeya,
Shane L.
vanny
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Post by vanny »

not quite shane.
Firstly im a poor studetn and cant afford the cost of the Mi16.
Second, im never one for following a trend :D
I tow quite a lot and would rather do that with a diesel
i dont like petrol
the engine the car came with was half in the boot and not in a wonderfull state, i figured it was easier to move my 53k 1.9 td Xantia engine into it than rebuild the Mi16 (how wrong was i!)
but insurance isnt an issue, it would have been cheaper to 6 on fully comp!
Am off to get plugs and leak of pipes now, will run up the tests when i get home.
Anders,
the glow plugs appear to be fine (operational clicks wise, and current drain when on!), but the car also has the Xantia style Post Heat realy system. I cant do the comp test my self and cant terribly afford to get it done quite yet, so need to sort all the other possibles first!
jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

Anders is suggesting the testing of each individual glowplug with a meter or alternatively a test bulb. You will have to disconnect each in turn as they are linked.
You may be able to isolate a cylinder as you would with a compression tester by taking each out in turn. With the engine running loosen each injector feed pipe in turn and see what happens (be careful not to let fuel spray onto your skin under pressure - it will go through.) Alternatively on startup you may be able to produce the same result by disconnecting each glowplug in turn. The object is to find out if the problem is affecting the whole engine (injection, timing, . . or one cylinder - valve, injector . .
jeremy
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