Starter Diagram

[kingjafad]

Thanks guys much appreciated. I dont suppose you have the 'starting/starter' wiring diagram or should i start a new thread for that? My DocBackup didnt find anything for that car
Cheers

[GiveMeABreak]

Yes, I've split this off into a new topic.

Here's the starting Circuit:

[kingjafad]

Thanks Marc. Ill get my head round it, but i think i may have found the C3 Start Stop...... starting problem - The small ancills battery under the seat was the original from 2008 - and its called the start stop battery! - it reports 10cca in a test when its supposed to be a lot more if my maths is correct for the FIAMM F4-12B (sticker claims 4ah and 40A(EN). (Its getting a darn good charge for the next 10hrs or so). I'll also test out that diode pack you pointed out but they seem to be simple 12V diodes even if i cant get the original parts - generic ones are probably a few quid on ebay.
Not sure if I am seeing the underseat ancills battery in that wiring diagram though - it has 2x 30amp fuses and a relay type thing with it

Makes me scratch my head a little when i see 30A fuses, 45A relay and 4A battery

[GiveMeABreak]

Ok, so I only put up the diagram you wanted (Starting) which is separate form the Stop Start, so here is the Stop Start:



1015 : "stop & start" control ECU
1021 : reversible alternator
1915 : battery temperature sensor

In case it helps, here's the location of the components as per that diagram:

[kingjafad]

Wow, thats fantastic marc. you're a star.

[johnsail]

Hi. Is there anything in the start/stop circuitry that a mechanic could refer to as the ‘convertor’?
I have been trying to find out (a) what a convertor is/does and (b) is it recommended that this be renewed when renewing the capacitor/ accumulator in the start/stop circuit?
My query relates to a Peugeot 208 1.6Hdi.
Apologies for ambushing this topic.
John

[GiveMeABreak]

@Johnsail: Stop Start systems have developed significantly and have changed a lot from the early days. Most no longer have the Energy Accumulators now, so best to start a new topic, so things don't get crossed over with this specific C3 MK II system that is one of the early systems.

[ozvtr]

Hmm that's interesting.
The "stop-start" battery doesn't seem to have anything to do with the stop-start system!
Relay 1704 brings the stop-start battery "on line" or isolates it. The instrument panel, the radio, the aircon ECU, and the central display can run from the "stop-start" battery if the main battery gets low. Either during starting or under normal use. If the main battery (or charging system) remains "good", the stop-start battery wont do much. Effectively it just stops the displays from dimming or going off-line when the car starts. It might stop some of those ECU's from resetting?
During car power down (ignition off) relay 8419 isolates the instrument and aircon ECU power. But the radio and central display will still have power. They are obviously turned on and off by the CAN BUS.

[kingjafad]

Hi ozvtr, Thanks - What you say is what i kind of realised when i looked at the wiring diagram that Marc kindly supplied. So my hopes that it was the little battery causing my problem are shrinking somewhat. What i am actually getting is the 'start stop faulty' up on the dash and it not starting on turn of the key when getting in - It didn't want to read with Diagbox at the time (Lexia) as my interface had a newer firmware so I reverted to my TopDon and it picked up a few issues (more related to battery failure) which i cleared as its just had a new battery according to my friend. I tested the engine bay battery and its got 800cca (only labelled as 680 so that's good). Its an automatic (sensodrive) and initially will make a click noise when turning the key but then fails to make any attempt to start. Subsequent turns of the key don't even get the click. I should also point out, that this is a 'Stop start' model so doesnt have a starter motor, it uses a reversible alternator and start stop ECU.
However, it will drive fine if given a bump start (proven to me by owner) , gears are fine, charges absolutely fine (even took it for a long drive with absolutely no issues) - weird I know. Not sure it would even have occurred to me to try bump starting an automatic.
Well after that long run, TopDon shows no error codes. On Diagbox (i have 7.57 and above) it tries to use Lexia and fails due to a message about not communicating with interface which research suggests requires downgrading to firmware 4.22 and Diagbox 5.29 - I figured out how to downgrade the firmware - my interface is capable of firmware changes both up and down, just not managed to get Diagbox 5.29 up and running yet.
There are a few youtube clips with similar snags (but without the start-stop faulty message) but they all seem to come back to the main battery (an Aussie one taking about 14 attempts is the closest to what i am seeing - like windows don't work until engine is running - and BSI reset really needs the driver window open - albeit i have tried to BSI reset given some limitations).
Anyway - I intend to put the small battery back in, or have a temporary spare car battery wired in under the seat to make some tests just in-case there are some feedbacks to ECU's. Also i have had the idea about retro fitting a normal starter motor - I believe the engine block will have the normal 3 mounting bolt holes for it (albeit its just got a cover plate on mine) - There are probably some reasons that's a bad idea, i just cant see them yet

Edit: I figured out why Lexia was claiming to not communicate - seemed to need to have the USB unplugged and plugged back in. I will be having another go at reading the car later on. (My interface is a rev B it seems)

[ozvtr]

Yes I have to unplug and then plug in my LEXIA too.

If the power generation part of the stop-start is working you could assume the alternator/starter is Ok. Particularly as the system runs fine (I.E. no error sign) once its going.

Do you get the stop-start error as soon as you turn the ignition on or only when you try to start it?

Some of the engine bay CAN BUS lines pass through the stop-start ECU so that might be tricky. RE: adding external starter.

Try and get LEXIA onto your car, see if you can get more information. On the surface it looks like the stop-start ECU but you don't want it to be that!!

[GiveMeABreak]

It shouldn't be an issue as the later versions of Lexia are shown here with the firmware (assuming the DB V7 software updates are installed normally and manual firmware changes have not been made):

Diagbox Version	Firmware Installed	PP2000 Version	Lexia Version
7.02	4.3.0	600.70	500.46
7.57	4.3.2	600.71	500.66
7.58	4.3.2	600.71	500.66
7.62	4.3.3	600.72	500.68
7.66	4.3.4	600.72	500.68

The later versions of Lexia should work fine according to the table.

[kingjafad]

Yes, the 'start-stop faulty' error comes up on the dash with just the ignition on, not even trying to start the engine. The fact that I was driving for 2hrs or so with headlights without any problems and the main battery still reads as fit as a fiddle 800cca suggests to me the alternator is passing current back through start stop ECU to battery to charge (at least that is what I think is where the wiring diagram shows the main battery gets its charge from - doesn't seem to be any other Alternator feed direct to battery).
My thought for the 'Normal Starter' retrofit would involve a direct battery feed x1 (probably via a 30-40A fuse - not entirely sure what it would normally be - some googling to follow) and then a simple solenoid trigger 12v via a smaller fuse through to a sprung switch somewhere near the driver seat - I don't intend getting it anywhere near CAN Bus stuff if I did go that route.
Anyway - I've ordered a £10 scrappy starter motor (seems that all the 1.4 petrol engines of that era seem to have the same part number in DocBackup 5802x) to have as my backup plan. And I will be playing with Lexia and the small/interim battery tomorrow now - (Just pulled my motorbike battery as its about the same size but 3 times more powerful)
Thanks for acting as a sounding board - that's one of the reasons I like these forums

Marc - thanks for that Lexia/PP2000 table - I figured out my mistake - it wasnt so much the firmware as the USB. I have since got Lexia to open by simply picking C3 R and then putting in the VIN and RPO - without even being connected to the car.

[kingjafad]

After staring at the wiring diagram again - my brain is saying that the alternator 3 pin (pin1,2,3 directly between alternator and ecu) wiring must be fine (if its charging the battery when running) and the ECU may be doing the regulating before it gets to the battery. but that doesnt prove the 2pin plug at the top of the diagram (wire 1935 and 1945) - that coil/winding must be something to do with the actual starter movement. I'll add a multimeter and bulb test on those 2 wires just in the interest of ruling things out.
Also when i get it bump started again, I can measure the voltage at the battery to ensure the ECU is indeed regulating the charge properly.
Just thinking outloud now

[ozvtr]

In principal (and principal only!) the alternator/starter is much the same as a normal alternator. All be it a bit simpler.

In alternator mode (generating power), DC is fed to the single winding (2 pin plug) and you get 3 phase AC out, as the rotor spins.
In starter mode, DC is fed to the single winding (again) and 3 phase AC power is fed to the 3 stator windings (turning it into a 3 phase AC motor).

The stop-start ECU is going to have to do all the jiggery-pokery to get this circus to work!

On the surface the ECU will run the alternator in "generator" mode but won't supply the 3 phase supply to the stator in "starter" mode. The question is: why! Is there something wrong with the ECU, or, some parameter outside the ECU that it doesn't like?

[kingjafad]

Update:
I put my bike battery in temporarily under the seat to see if it made a difference - it didn't. I tested the diode pack under the seat - it was fine (and it seems to have a redundant one too that is fine but not wired) The relay under the seat didn't make any clicking noises (relay 1704) or the Infront of the handbrake (relay 8419) although with my hearing that's not a reliable check these days! I meant to probe the wiring to see if 12V was getting through them but forgot and moved on to the below items - I'll come back to checking those voltages later.

So i finally got Lexia to connect properly - took about 10 tries of USB pulling (via VirtualBox machine). Once I was in, i read the codes - and that took quite a while! 18 of them on Alternator/Start Stop alone. I made a note of them all - all seemingly from when it had a poor battery of 6V. Managed to erase the codes and then checked again. The only code left was P1390 (Reversible Alternator Position Sensor) -Permanent. I tried starting the car (no Start-Stop error flashing on the Dash now) but it just clicked and didn't start.
Reading the errors again, P1390 Alternator Position sensor, but it also picked up:
P1389 (Excessive voltage - which it claimed was 11.9V)
P1A80 (Alternator Blocked)
P1A83 (Starter motor circuit problem)
(All bar P1390 - Position sensor - is still erasable)

The BSI also has a new code 9528 (No Starter Coherence)

If the alternator was genuinely blocked it wouldn't have charged the battery when it was running - so my guess is that whatever the 'Position Sensor' is, its faulty and making the ECU think the Alternator didn't move when told to start the car and that could explain the 'blocked' and 'starter motor circuit' stuff. Anyone got any photos/diagram of how that reversible alternator is built? If I can figure out the position sensor pins I may be able to progress (can only be on the small 6 connector plug (marked CP in the diagram) - Edit: found details - see next post.

On the other 'Retrofit Normal Starter' idea, i have had a look with the airbox off, and it seems like there is plenty of room and the bolt holes are there, it just got the coverplate over where the normal starter would go. And it looks quite easy to put a 100A cable across to the Battery (I am assuming that should be enough - got an autoelectrical place in town that i will go and have a chat with).