DS3 2012 e-hdi non starter

[markf66]

Hello all,

I have a non starting DS3 1.6 e-hdi, It had recently had starter motor, clutch and clutch slave cylinder replaced. Battery is also a recent addition too. My wife was driving when the A/C went off then the car stalled, she pulled over switched off and it restarted again, enough for her to get it on the drive with a slight acrid smell from under the bonnet.. It now does not start at all.....The ignition turns on all lights on the dash work, battery level stays constant while trying to turn it on. it does not even crank on the key, i have shorted the solenoid out with a long screwdriver to at least turn it over, but again does nothing at all. The only indication of an issue previously was the central display kept saying Eco mode active and the Eco mode deactivated all the time. This started just after it returned from having the starter fitted...I have included the diag. report (below) with some fault codes showing as permanant, i feel this is a sensor or electrical fault...perhaps somebody here would now more about these codes and maybe give me a clue as to where to look please

MaxiCOM Vehicle Diagnostic Report


Vehicle Information

DS 2012 DS 3

VIN: VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]****** 2022/08/06 14:40 Path: Automatic selection > Diagnosis > Auto scan >


Status report

Status DTC content System name

Fault 2 Built-in Systems Interface (BSI) -- BSI Fault 4 Engine ECU -- EDC17C10_BR2
Pass 0 ABS or ESP -- ESPMK60_O

Pass 0 Airbags and pretensioners ECU -- SAC_AUTOLIV Pass 0 Combination instrument -- COMBINE
Pass 0 Parking assist -- AAS

Pass 0 A/C -- CLIM_REGULEE

Pass 0 Diesel fuel additive pump -- PADDGO Pass 0 Voltage stabilizer -- DMTC
Pass 0 Power steering -- DAE_A515

Pass 0 Engine wiring housing -- BSM Pass 0 Trailer relay unit -- BSR
Pass 0 Battery State Of Charge (SOC) control unit -- BECB_GEN2

Pass 0 Controls under the steering wheel -- HDC

Pass 0 Rain/Light Sensor (RLS) -- PLUIE_LUMINOSITE Pass 0 Multi-function screen -- EMF_A
Pass 0 Radio -- AUTORADIO

Fault 2 Built-in Systems Interface (BSI) -- BSI DTC code Status DTC content
9528 Fault: no starter command Consistency

F5FF Unexpected re-initialization fault coming from the Built-in Systems
Interface (BSI)

Fault 4 Engine ECU -- EDC17C10_BR2

DTC code Status DTC content

P16B4 Permanent fault ECU Error of signals plausibility for Start/Stop function (Safety level 2) P0851 Permanent fault Transmission gear N measurement Short circuit to ground
P0850 Permanent fault Transmission gear N measurement Signal implausible

U1218 Permanent fault Inter-systems CAN One of the parameters present in a Live data transmitted by the Built-in Systems Interface (BSI) is invalid

Many thanks for any advise given,
Mark.

[GiveMeABreak]

Did you have the correct starter fitted - if you have a Stop Start system, it must be the correct type. Pop up the VIN (automasked on post submission) so I can see what you have.

[markf66]

Thanks for your reply I will post the VIN when I am next home in a few days

[markf66]

Hello Marc, sorry for the delay here is my VIN. VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] .. I have shown a friend my diag. report, he asked me to try running a jump lead cable from the negative battery terminal to a good engine earth...He said maybe a bad earth at the gearbox...I tried that and still have a broken car on the drive.. Still have all electrics running fine, battery power is at 12.45v down to 12.33v when turning the key...still a non starter...(no clicking sound just nothing at all) any help gratefully received. Thanks

[Doo]

I have an e-hdi in my 2012 Berlingo. It's been super reliable, but I noticed the alternator has several wires coming to the fusebox.

I also own a 22yr old Range Rover P38. The reason I mention this is I had a starter problem, replaced the starter and routed the main + feed round a bracket until I replaced the starter. Unfortunately, I forgot to feed the wire back again so the wire was slightly stretched and the heat from the close by exhaust down pipes softened the plastic covering the thick wire until it shorted dead on the bracket. The car died, a fire started and it wasn't until I saw the smoke that I knew what was happening. I was lucky I carry a fire extinguisher and put the (small) fire out. However, the first thing I did before the extinguisher was to disconnect the battery....

Called rescue, they jacked the car up and discovered the issue. They taped the exposed wire and encouraged me to reconnect the battery. Car started immediately, no faults! Drove home & proceeded to replace the damaged wire....

Now I may be wrong, but I wonder if something similar has happened to you! Only, I suspect the Citroen is better protected than the 22yr old Rover... The acrid smell, the lack of starting, the battery voltage seems fine.

I suspect Marc may be right with his suspicion the starter may be slightly wrong. They may look similar, but if it's a lower spec, it may have fried the wiring or the fuses. I suspect you may have to get someone along with a DiagBox/Lexia to plug in and have a sniff around the circuits since these vehicles don't take kindly to other code readers.

To go back to the Rover, I just parted with £165 to ghost my cars running codes onto another BeCM (same as BSI) and engine ECU because unfortunately for me, the electric dead short spiked both of these and caused battery flattening issues as the interior lights would come on for no reason despite the car being locked . This was happening several times a day and killed a new Hankook MF30 - 1000 in 4 days (this is the traktor of all batteries).

My point being, electrical faults can cause ongoing problems so you must get them checked out properly. Keep us updated, but try to keep Marc advised of the starter make & model.

[markf66]

Thank you for your reply, when I left the car at the garage the owner did ask if it was stop start and I said yes it was.. so I would of thought that question was starter related... I am having them pick it up at some point... I am not afraid to get my hands dirty, as it was a runabout I thought I could sort it but it seems not..thank you for your reply.. I will post the results as I get them.. thank you again

[GiveMeABreak]

Ok, so the starter is pretty standard, but this vehicle has a reversible alternator fitted. Assuming nothing was touched concerning that according to your description, we can look at the other faults:

These are the fault code descriptors. As you can see, if certain conditions are not met then the automatic starting will be disabled under a safety protocol. Looking at the possible causes, you can see that if certain data is missing then it can prevent the system from starting. For example you can see on at least 2 of the fault codes, under suspect areas, the gearbox neutral sensor is mentioned, along with the clutch sensor. If the ECU cannot detect that the gearbox is in neutral then it will prevent starting.

Now whether this is down to the sensor or the electronics is where further investigation is needed.

I can tell you that this is not the first time we've heard of garages causing more problems than they are there to fix - especially when they disregard connections, forget to plug in connectors or upset wiring. So seeing as this has happened after you have had 'repairs' done, I would get them to go back and re-check everything as they may have caused the faults through lack of care and attention to detail. Now as you have had clutch work done, this is where I would start - but really this has to be down to the garage to rectify.

Fault Code:	P16B4
Description of Fault:	Computer : Error of plausibility of the signals for the Stop and Start function (Level 2). Safety level 2: Error in plausibility, on either the signal from the clutch or the signal for gearbox neutral position, or the signal from the mastervac or the signal for vehicle speed. Fault is triggered with ignition on. Conditions of activation of the diagnostics requires at least one of the following conditions to be fulfilled: - Ignition on - Engine running
Conditions for Fault to clear:	Ignition on
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:	Automatic restarting impossible following stopping of the engine (Requires restarting of the engine using the key).
Symptoms:	Lack of power Absence of automatic stopping of the internal combustion engine Problem with automatic restarting of the internal combustion engine Malfunction of the Stop and Start switch or its LED
Suspect Areas:	Neutral sensor Clutch master cylinder position sensor Vehicle speed sensor Vacuum sensor Electrical harnesses Connectors

Fault Code:	P0850
Description of Fault:	Gearbox neutral position measurement: Signal not plausible. Possibility 1 The frequency of the signal is below 200 Hz (For 500 ms) Possibility 2 The frequency of the signal is above 300 Hz (For 500 ms).
Conditions for Fault to clear:	Ignition on
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:
Symptoms:	Absence of automatic stopping of the internal combustion engine Problem with lighting of the ECO warning lamp for the Stop and Start in the instrument panel Malfunction of the Stop and Start switch or its LED
Suspect Areas:	Neutral sensor Electrical harness Connectors

Fault Code:	U1218
Description of Fault:	Intersystems CAN : One of the parameters present in a datastream sent by the BSI is invalid. Faults in communication between ECUs on the CAN. At least one of the following conditions must be fulfilled: - Ignition switched on - Engine running
Conditions for Fault to clear:	Driving for 5 minutes
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:	Air conditioning deactivation Reversible deactivation of the vehicle speed limiter Reversible deactivation of the vehicle cruise control
Symptoms:	Jerking/stalling Lack of power Starting problem Absence of automatic stopping of the internal combustion engine (Vehicle equipped with "stop and start") Problem with automatic restarting of the internal combustion engine (Vehicle equipped with "stop and start")
Suspect Areas:	Engine ECU Intersystem CAN network

[markf66]

Thank you again for the very in depth reply..as the activated/deactived stop-start function was flashing on the central display I am hoping it's the Neutral position sensor, either not plugged in or damaged in some way..the garage have said the starter was the stop-start variant...clutch slave cylinder was replaced the same time as the starter..clutch was done around 2 months prior and was all good. Thanks again for your help..

[Doo]

Thank you again for the very in depth reply..as the activated/deactived stop-start function was flashing on the central display I am hoping it's the Neutral position sensor, either not plugged in or damaged in some way..the garage have said the starter was the stop-start variant...clutch slave cylinder was replaced the same time as the starter..clutch was done around 2 months prior and was all good. Thanks again for your help..

Thanks to Marc for the in depth print out. I have a suspicion these piloted boxes don't have a neutral as such, but rather the clutch is disconnected and held upon stopping the vehicle or switching off. I found that if I leave the vehicle "in gear" (R or A or M) it locks it either in 1st or reverse so you could essentially park it on a hill in gear to prevent rolling away... I digress.

The point in making is its possible the acrid smell might have been the clutch slipping! I've had this from my Berlingo pulling a heavy trailer from standstill on a steep hill. So moving forward (so to speak) it's possible the clutch has been slipping and this might be the cause of the issue!!

As an aside, my wife's car (doesn't have stop/start) was having issues with management light on, stalling and whatnot. I ended up replacing the clutch and found the crankshaft oil seal had failed, allowing oil to contaminate the clutch lining. This allowed the clutch to slip in higher gears, creating an implausibility error between the speed and the expected speed between the engine, gearbox and driving wheels.

Just some things to consider.

Good luck.

[markf66]

Wow I think I have got a wrong un... But hopefully get it sorted once again thanks for all the info.

[GiveMeABreak]

Thanks to Marc for the in depth print out. I have a suspicion these piloted boxes don't have a neutral as such, but rather the clutch is disconnected and held upon stopping the vehicle or switching off. I found that if I leave the vehicle "in gear" (R or A or M) it locks it either in 1st or reverse so you could essentially park it on a hill in gear to prevent rolling away... I digress.

The point in making is its possible the acrid smell might have been the clutch slipping! I've had this from my Berlingo pulling a heavy trailer from standstill on a steep hill. So moving forward (so to speak) it's possible the clutch has been slipping and this might be the cause of the issue!!

Just for you to be aware, this vehicle is a standard manual gearbox - it's not a piloted version.

[Doo]

Just for you to be aware, this vehicle is a standard manual gearbox - it's not a piloted version.

Ahhh I didn't read that bit.

Back to the drawing board for me

[Doo]

Another thought occurred....

Many years ago, I had a Vauxhall Cavalier with a defective ignition switch. Despite telling my wife several times, "Turn the key back a notch once the engine starts!!" she failed to do so. The car got around half a mile before stopping with a burning smell. Turned out she forgot so the starter was engaged all the way from our house to the point where the car stopped. The starter was sucking out more power than the alternator could replace. By the time I arrived, there was still some power in the battery, but the starter was done for.

I wonder if something similar has happened here. I mean, why did it need a battery, starter as well as the clutch?!?! It's just possible the starter has been sticking. I know certain marques had starter problems with clutch dust gathering in the pinion housing and jamming them...

[markf66]

Hello all.
The little red beast now lives.. Turns out after much head scratching and debating with my garage and auto electrical bloke, turns out the starter fitted was wrong and failed, I think one of you did mention the starter, good job... It starts on the key first time, everytime, yeepee.... The only problem left to sort out now is the stop start, neutral position sensor shows as faulty with an implausible fault to ground.. Does anyone know where it is located on a 1.6 e-hdi. And is it accessable to a novice
Thank you