Xantia towing motorbike trailer?

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 24 Apr 2004, 05:39

Going to be towing a bike trailer, have done it before on short distances with 1 bike but will be 2 so heavier and am worried on what happens when I camp overnight and the Xantia sinks, will the towbar be OK? or do I have nothing to worry about?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 24 Apr 2004, 05:48

Karl -
I believe you worry yourself for no reasons !
If that trailer is loaded correct, it should only have a minor weight on the tow hook itself.
Of course when your Xantia is sinking, the trailer will tilt a bit, moving center of gravity towards the towhook, hence loading it a bit more.
I believe that even large campers are balanced to have a max weight of approx 70Kg on the towhook.
Remember that the towhook is not supposed to carry a weight from the trailer, but simply to tow the trailer.

DomF9 · Post by **DomF9** » 24 Apr 2004, 08:50

"Remember that the towhook is not supposed to carry a weight from the trailer, but simply to tow the trailer."
WRONG! Sorry Anders, but here in the UK it is A LEGAL REQUIREMENT that you have a noseweight of 4% of the trailer weight or 25kg, whichever is the larger. This is to ensure that the trailer remains locked to the towhook.
As I tow a trailer of 600kg regularly, I did get the paperwork relating to the laws when I bought my trailer from Indespension in January. However, http://www.practicalcaravan.com/legal/index.html gives the rules quite succinctly -
"Noseweight
It is a legal requirement that the noseweight should be 4% of the weight of the trailer or at least 25kg, whichever is the higher.. For safety you should aim for, but not exceed, the lower of the 2 figures specified for caravan and car respectively. "
Karl, even if your Xantia sank all that would happen would be that the weight on the towhook would increase. As I presume your trailer has a Maximum Allowable Weight (MAM) of no more than 750kgs, the amount of weight thus pressing down on your hook would be negligable. After all, it can only sink by what? a foot at most?
The only precautions I would take are; if leaving attached to the car, do not lower the jockey wheel as the car may sink lower than the jockey wheel will allow, causing stress on the hook. Personally, I'd unhook the trailer if concerned, fit a locking device into the trailer's socket and chain&padlock it to the towhook assembly. That way it is still connected to the car to deter theft, but negates any extra stress on the towball.
Regards
DomF

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 24 Apr 2004, 19:32

Dom -
I'm wondering if we in fact are trying to tell the same thing [:)]
Of course I did'nt have the f... on national UK towing requirements, but logically you can't have a payload on the towhook, only the required load to keep the entire tow train stable.
Anywaise - 4% or at least 25Kg, is a very sensible figure contributing to stability of the complete train, as long as you don't exceed a max fig of approx 70kg, which technically is the approx upper limit - again in view of stability.
The whole idea is overall stability, trying to avoid over/under -steering of the towing car, and then of course any national legislation to ensure drivers get it sensible within safety aspects.
To finish off this issue, I'd say the Xantia (saloon/sedan) is about the most perfect tow vehicle you can get in terms of stability, as the suspension keeps the average correct ride height during drive, and on top of that you have a short rear-axle to tow hook distance.

DomF9 · Post by **DomF9** » 24 Apr 2004, 20:41

Anders
We are both saying the same thing, but I thought Karl should be aware that a ****ty cop could give him 3 points on his licence on the Construction & Use Act if he didn't have the legally required weight on the hook. A nominal weight of, say, 10kgs would cover what you said but would leave him open to prosecution.
Sorry for any confusion.
Dom

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » 24 Apr 2004, 21:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by AndersDK

Anywaise - 4% or at least 25Kg, is a very sensible figure contributing to stability of the complete train, as long as you don't exceed a max fig of approx 70kg, which technically is the approx upper limit - again in view of stability.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The Xantia has a noseweight limit of 85Kgs - in spite of Haynes quoting 50Kgs. In caravanning circles we aim to have the noseweight on the ball at around 7% of the ladened weight of the trailer.
This topic reminds me of when I towed a caravan with my BX-TZD. Even a short stop required the van to be uncoupled to allow the BX's suspension to drop.

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 25 Apr 2004, 06:18

Thanks guys. Good to know I be OK and useful info on noseweights in case plod stops me, otherwise I would have no idea.

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 26 Apr 2004, 06:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Xantia has a noseweight limit of 85Kgs - in spite of Haynes quoting 50Kgs. In caravanning circles we aim to have the noseweight on the ball at around 7% of the ladened weight of the trailer.
This topic reminds me of when I towed a caravan with my BX-TZD. Even a short stop required the van to be uncoupled to allow the BX's suspension to drop.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What a load of BS [:o)][:I][8)]
Why on earth would you need to disconnect the caravan so the "back can drop" ?? Trust me the back will drop all by itself (in no time at all if you have some decent ball weight there).
I can't understand what you guys a getting worked up about. A motorbike trailer ?? Good grief the bloody car won't even know it's there. I frequently tow DS's/CX's/GS's(on 800+ kg car trailers)/caravans/anything I can swing from a towball behind my hydraulic Cits.
The thing to be wary of is NEVER load a cartrailer with the car backwards (ie: with negative ball weight). Gee's I've never even towed anything behind a Citroen that has even required a weight distribution hitch. The CX's and D's tow everything I've put behind them with incredible ease. A BX would tow a small caravan effortlessly. All that happens if the back sinks is it'll rest on it's bumpstops (big deal [:p] ).
The car you towing with is a Xantia and as such would tow anything upto a 16foot caravan effortlessly (I'd imagine). Just be careful your ballweight is not to heavy as that'll void your car insurance if you have an accident. In the case of CX's and D's, there is no ball weight specified. Infact they can tow upto 1800kgs according to the handbook.
seeya,
Shane L.

DomF9 · Post by **DomF9** » 26 Apr 2004, 07:29

"What a load of BS"
Did it ever occur to you to perhaps tone down your language, Shane??
"I can't understand what you guys a getting worked up about. A motorbike trailer ?? Good grief the bloody car won't even know it's there"
Ditto above.
There are several reasons I can think of why John -might- want to disconnect his caravan. The first is that if he has either the jockey wheel or stands down then the Xantia WON'T lower because the hook and ball will be holding it up. Secondly, maybe when he starts it up again, the Xantia's hydraulics not only have to raise the Xantia up but a caravan's weight along with it. Also, there are other factors to take into account, like does he have a standard Witter-type or maybe a Brink?
"Just be careful your ballweight is not to heavy as that'll void your car insurance" On what grounds, bearing in mind it would be UK law not Australia's, and also down to the individual insurer??
Maybe because you've "been there and done it" you know it all. Kindly allow others to enquire. And I'm quite sure when Karl gets points on his licence for not knowing about noseweights, or even maximum trailer weights over here, you'd be the first to commiserate with him. Here in the UK, you can -not- just sling anything or any weight you want behind what you drive.
"In the case of CX's and D's, there is no ball weight specified. Infact they can tow upto 1800kgs according to the handbook."
Yeah, and my ZX has an upper limit of 600kgs. Doesn't mean I can tow 16 foot though.

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 26 Apr 2004, 10:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"What a load of BS"
Did it ever occur to you to perhaps tone down your language, Shane?? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmm, maybe I didn't put enough smiley faces in there ... I certainly wasn't being serious [;)] [:I] [8)]
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There are several reasons I can think of why John -might- want to disconnect his caravan. The first is that if he has either the jockey wheel or stands down then the Xantia WON'T lower because the hook and ball will be holding it up. Secondly, maybe when he starts it up again, the Xantia's hydraulics not only have to raise the Xantia up but a caravan's weight along with it. Also, there are other factors to take into account, like does he have a standard Witter-type or maybe a Brink? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You guys are still worrying about nothing. You may have even 100kgs ball weight if you go overboard. Now stop and think about it, you'll never, ever be able to lift that weight off (unless you have a strong dolly wheel). The suspensions point of view ??. Yes it may have to lift it from 'low'. What about the front, it has a dirty big engine and gearbox hanging over it. It weighs a hell of a lot more than 100kgs. Shouldn't you be extremely concerned about the hydraulics having to lift that from 'low'. If the jockey wheel touches the ground on 'low' it MUST be removed. The rear suspension on a Xantia can get down towards the low setting through dips ...
What I'm trying to get across is as long as your sensible, towing any reasonable sized load should not in anyway hurt the car. Infact if you have a 'normal' car with springs and shockers you should be more worried. Bum down, compressed rear springs, nose of the car lifting into the air, the car wandering at speed, the headlights pointing to the sky etc, etc. If you overload the suspension to the point where is CAN NOT lift the rear of the car, it'll simply stay there. There's no more force on the hydraulics themselves than there is with the car on 'HIGH'. When the car is on the 'HIGH' setting the full hydraulic pressure is applied to the suspension. This would be far more stressful than lifting a reasonably sized weight.
Even filling your hatch with heavy objects will put more weight in the rear than a light caravan or trailer, do you remove everything from the boot when you stop ??
I'm certainly not trying to mock anyone. I could possibly be wrong (I'm sure Anders will correct me [:D] ), but this is how I view the loads on the suspension. [:)]
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Yeah, and my ZX has an upper limit of 600kgs. Doesn't mean I can tow 16 foot though.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It most certainly does, if it weighs less than 600kgs you can tow a 16' trailer. If it's a larger enlosed trailer obviously common sense has to prevail as sidewinds will have a dramatic affect out on the highway.
Having said this, if he's not confident in towing both motorbikes above. Simply don't do it !! You can always make two trips. There's nothing wrong with that if it means your less stressed out on the busy roads.
seeya,
Shane L.

rg · Post by rg » 26 Apr 2004, 18:30

Folks,
I tow a twin axle caravan with a 4x4, and also a 800kgs car trailer often loaded with two tonnes of telecomms equipment. (But not at the same time...)
Low or negative noseweight is _very_ nasty, and can set off a "snake" very quickly and without hope of recovery.
rg

DomF9 · Post by **DomF9** » 26 Apr 2004, 21:58

Points taken Shane, you're quite right. Having read your comments I think Karl has absolutely nothing to worry about. Mind you, personally I feel safer towing with a ZX, knowing I haven;t got all those hydraulics to go wrong, and not having leaf or coil springs to sag and point my lights to the sky.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 26 Apr 2004, 22:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DomF9

Mind you, personally I feel safer towing with a ZX, knowing I haven;t got all those hydraulics to go wrong, and not having leaf or coil springs to sag and point my lights to the sky.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If your suspension is not self levelling and your add weight to the rear of the car it is going to go down regardless of whether it is torsion beam, coil or leaf spring, hence your lights will be pointed up higher with a trailer on than without.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » 26 Apr 2004, 23:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DoubleChevron
What a load of BS [:o)][:I][8)]
Why on earth would you need to disconnect the caravan so the "back can drop" ?? Trust me the back will drop all by itself (in no time at all if you have some decent ball weight there).
Shane L.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
For the past six years I've been towing with a 2.1 Xantia estate so I don't need to disconnect the hitch because the back end doesn't drop. (Well not much anyway) But my previous post referred to when I used a BX. We know how they drop. The alternatives were to disconnect the hitch or let the suspension fall until the jockey wheel grounded and prevented the BX falling anymore. Faced with a choice between putting stress on the jockey wheel/hitch/towbar or disconnecting from the towball, I chose the latter.

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 27 Apr 2004, 06:27

Hmm,
intersting. I'm still trying to fathom the need to disconnect a caravan. If the jockey wheel touches on 'low', you really need to remove it and place it in your boot (the car can move to those extremes while your out on the road towing).
Hydraulics are incredibly strong, you'll never break them with these loads (as stated putting the car on 'high' is far more stressful). If the car is on low, the rear sits on the bump stops, another even 100kgs isn't going to hurt (3big guys in the back seat of the car will apply more pressure). If the caravan drawbar somehow touches on 'low', that's quite dangerous as there is a possibility it can touch while your moving/towing. However all that means is the hitch will hold the rear of the car slightly up. The weight of the rear of the car on the towbar won't hurt the car (you can safely jack from there).
Gee's, I've had DS21 ie 5spds sitting on the back of CX's and let the back fall to the bumpstops, it certainly won't hurt ... After all, it's not the weight of the trailer on your towbar, just the "ball weight" which is usually quite small.
The reason your Xantia doesn't sink is it has anti-sink valves. Actually leaving the weight on the Xantia is probably worse for the hydraulics as your leaving the the anti-sink valve heavily loaded. With a BX the back will sink to the bumpstop and take the load off the hydraulics

seeya,
Shane L.