Xantia vibration

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
Online
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Xantia vibration

Post by RichardW »

Having fitted the spare tyre at the rear in place of the flat spotted Tigar rubbish, the back is nice and smooth now, BUT I still have a vibration problem:
It’s on the front, it only occurs at above 60mph, it’s much worse on overrun or freewheeling, it’s worse with any degree of RH lock on, almost disappears with LH lock, it doesn’t ‘kick’ the steering – just a general vibrating feeling (like driving over rumble strips), it sounds / feels like it’s coming from the near side (when driving – I haven’t assessed it from the passenger seat). There is some soft knocking from the N/S over rough roads at low speeds, which I think is wear in the wishbone bushes (drop links were renewed about 3k miles ago, and it’s no where near as sharp a sounds as they were). I have checked the tyres and can see no untoward lumps or bumps on them. Car has just ticked over 100k.
So, my thoughts are it’s either a CV joint, inner triax joint, the LH intermediate bearing or a wheel bearing (O/S wheel bearing was renewed 20k miles ago though).
Anybody experienced similar, and got any pointers to narrow it down? I think it’s always done it a bit, but it has got worse over the last few 000 miles, and I notice it more now, as the ZX is smooth as silk by comparison….
User avatar
AndersDK
Posts: 6060
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
Location: Denmark
My Cars:
x 1

Post by AndersDK »

If it's at worst RH steering lock on, then I'd say it's an LHS located problem.
If it feels like rumble strips, I'd suspect the wheelbearing. The inner TRIjoint rarely (if ever) fails, and would then produce heavy knocking, like the outer CV would do. A faulty CV also tends to transmit vibrations up the steering
If you can not diagnose any problem when testing the jacked up front, then suspect the intermediate bearing on LHS long driveaxle. This is somewhat impossible to diagnose as any rumbling/vibration from here is amplified and transmitted via engine/mountings.
David W
Posts: 439
Joined: 30 Apr 2001, 17:49
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by David W »

Richard,
Are we talking about the nearside or left hand side as you sit in the car? If it sounds like that side then there isn't any extra support bearing on the n/s driveshaft is there.
My thoughts would lean towards a driveshaft as powering on/off and turning has such a great effect. Not to say it couldn't be a wheel bearing but 90% of the ones I change fail with a distinct drone at speed and you don't mention this.
As the nearside driveshaft is so easy to pull I'd get it off and have a look/feel. When I did the clutch on my own TD, and needed to change both outer driveshaft gaiters, I noticed (even after re-greasing) the nearside outer joint was slightly stiff compared with the offside. I expect this to mean I will find a rumble appearing sometime in the next 20,000 mls warning the shaft needs changing.
Often it is this stiffness you are looking for, not play. You will never detect this while the shaft is on the car.
If it's possible I'd plan to remove the shaft and then if no obvious problems found replace the wheel bearing as a matter of course..... cross fingers and try it.
David
jeremy
Posts: 3959
Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
Location: Hampshire, UK
My Cars:
x 2

Post by jeremy »

I had problems with the inner near side driveshaft on my BX TD. Nothing dramatic but a discernable noise on acceleration on right hand corners. It carried on for about 18 months without getting any worse but I eventually could move the shaft up and down at the joint (about 5 mm from what I remember)and I replaced the shaft which cured the problem.
Certainly no vibrations etc, just a noticeable roughness.
jeremy
NiSk
Posts: 1422
Joined: 24 Jan 2002, 20:11
Location: Sweden
My Cars:
x 1

Post by NiSk »

Before you start pulling the car apart, try swapping wheels front/back and see if it makes any difference. Sounds far too easy I know, BUT it has happened to me and friends far too often to dismiss!
//NiSk
Online
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Post by RichardW »

Well, on cursory inspection last night there is noticeable play in the N/S front wheel - with the car still on the ground[:0] I didn't have time to jack it up, but pretty sure it's the wheel bearing.
So next question, what size is that hub nut, and am I likely to be able to unscrew it with a 3ft extension pipe.....[}:)]
David W
Posts: 439
Joined: 30 Apr 2001, 17:49
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by David W »

Richard,
35mm socket, pref 6-point high impact deep type. I think Draper do a perfect one for about £5.
Yes a 3ft bar should shift it OK. When tightening the correct torque is a whisker under 240lb.ft and most folks don't have a t/wrench that goes up this far. I regard it as acceptable to go up the the usual max of 150 most wrenches allow then give it an extra "grunt" with the 3ft bar. Of course you can work out where to stand along the bar with your weight to get it spot on. ;-)
Funily enough I've just been working through a 3yr old Mondeo with similar problems....vibration and clonks. First obvious fault was two broken front springs! Doing those showed up severe wear in the drop links so they were replaced, also bit of play in one w/brg noted. Still a vibration** on test drive but oddly almost no typical w/brg drone.
**More of a drumming under your feet than steering wheel shake.
Looked carefully at front tyres as they are so often a culprit as mentioned above. Both front tyres had "flat" spots due to distortion, o/s was pretty bad. Swapped around front to rear plus using spare and vibration much better but still there. With 5mm tread remaining and a cost of £100 each (205/50x16W) to expensive to change on a whim.
So the wheel bearing is the next thing to try. At this moment I have a new one in the freezer (yes really) and will fit it in a while. Hub housing in oven and bearing in freezer makes them far easier to get back!
David
Online
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Post by RichardW »

I was confident it was the wheel bearing, but I thought I would jack it up and check before I went off and bought one - and a hub socket. In high and on the jack, no play apparent - sure I wasn't imagining it? No roughness detected in the bearing either. Hmm. Back in normal on the ground and the play is back - WTF??? After a bit of experimentation I decided the play was in the track rod end. New one fitted this morning - all the low speed knocking has gone, and it appears to have stopped the vibration (only had a short run at speed, but it seemed much better - will have to confirm tomorrow).
I guess that the drive shaft must be out of balance a bit and the play in the track rod was causing the whole lot to oscilate at speed - which probably means I will have to change the shaft some time - just not this week!
User avatar
JohnW
Posts: 131
Joined: 09 Dec 2001, 03:40
Location: Western Australia
My Cars:

Post by JohnW »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D J Woollard</i>

Richard,
At this moment I have a new one in the freezer (yes really) and will fit it in a while. Hub housing in oven and bearing in freezer makes them far easier to get back! David <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Thanks guys for an interesting thread. I had a couple of related questions:
1. I presume the freezer trick gets a few thou of the ID? Have you ever measured how much difference it makes, by any chance?
2. You did say the F**d was only 3 years old. That sort of trouble with a 3-year old car?????
Thanks
JohnW
Forth
Posts: 179
Joined: 24 Apr 2004, 23:09
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:

Post by Forth »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That sort of trouble with a 3-year old car?????<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Mid 1990s... then girlfriend's VW Polo.... a sheared front drivers side stub-axle.... the metal looked a bit crystaline across the break.... phoned up VW's head office as it seemed a possible safety thing if there was a flawed batch... but they said "what do you expect on a four year old car". [xx(]
jeremy
Posts: 3959
Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
Location: Hampshire, UK
My Cars:
x 2

Post by jeremy »

John - yes thats the theory. I replaced the bottom engine mount on my TD without removing anything other than the small link yoke between the large circular mount on the engine.
I sawed through the large bush metal sleeve to reduce tension and then drove this out and was able to fit the deep frozen new bush without much trouble. The smaller one required pressing into the yoke using a vice even though it was frozen.
Useful technique!
jeremy
User avatar
JohnW
Posts: 131
Joined: 09 Dec 2001, 03:40
Location: Western Australia
My Cars:

Post by JohnW »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jeremy</i>

John - yes thats the theory. I replaced the bottom engine mount on my TD without removing anything other than the small link yoke between the large circular mount on the engine.
I sawed through the large bush metal sleeve to reduce tension and then drove this out and was able to fit the deep frozen new bush without much trouble. The smaller one required pressing into the yoke using a vice even though it was frozen.
Useful technique!
Jeremy,
Many thanks.
I wish I'd thought of it before!! Sounds perfect for getting rear wheel bearings (single ball races) onto rear engine Renault half shafts without so much brutality. And many other things. Our freezer gives -18 Celsius and ambient temperature is generally 20 - 30 during the day, depending upon season of course. Bad winter days might not exceed 12 degrees but that's still a 30 degree difference.
Cheers
JohnW
jeremy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Post Reply