Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

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lenny1972
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Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by lenny1972 »

I had to replace the electronic stationery brake in my C5 X7 car. Even if the replacement part works as expected and has been also calibrated with the Diagbox it is not recognised by the BSI of the car... The strange thing is that when I switch on the car (after a long period that it has been switched off) the car didn't show any error and the electronic stationery brake works as expected (even in automatic mode). But when I switch off the car again in the car cockpit suddenly the auto-electronic brake icon showed me some errors (automatic stationery brake error and it's disabling). If I wait some minutes (5 or more) the error disappeared and when I switch-on the car again the errors are gone and the automatic electronic brake starts again to work as expected. In the Diagbox global test, the error showed - in the automatic electronic stationery brake section - is an "unknown device" error. I've also tried to leave the car with the battery disconnected for more than one hour hoping that the BSI will be forced to re-learn the devices (included the second-hand electronic stationery brake) but with no luck... Can someone help me?
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by steen2345uk »

i not sure but on a renualt scenic 2 eletronic handbrake you have to program it to the bsi might be the same for your car but i hope you find the right answer soon
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by GiveMeABreak »

It doesn't need coding to the BSI, but it does need calibrating on replacement. There is a specific procedure to be followed after refitting new new EPB. It is within Diagbox and is a guided procedure that needs to be followed before activating the handbrake.
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by lenny1972 »

Within the Diagbox maintenance/replacement procedure menù of the EPB I've followed all the tasks (named "Install of EPB" and "EPB calibration") and the tasks has been completed with no problems or errors. The strange thing is that in the EPB "Error list" is present an error saying that the EPB device in not recognised ("device unknown" or something like that). The second-hand EPB has been bought after checking it's compliance with my car by an Official Citroen Maintenance Center (that also installed the EPB on my car). So I suppose that the EPB replacing procedure has been followed correctly by the Citroen guys. I'm curious about the "Telecoding" menu within the EPB menu in the Diagbox. Why this menu if the EPB didn't need any coding? Having a chinese Diagbox version I'm not able to access the "Telecoding" functionalities because I didn't have any valid PSA account (I suppose that Telecoding require the access to PSA servers to be used). Probably the Telecoding of the EPB will make the second-hand EPB "accepted" by my car...Any experience in Telecoding procedure?
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by GiveMeABreak »

What version of Diagbox are you using? If your version is too high, you will lose lots of telecoding function (generally versions over 7.62 start to remove functions).

The only configuration is to do with the ESP ECU as the ESP controls the EPB in a master slave relationship. But that shouldn't really need changing.

If you don't have a full-chip CAN interface, then your diagnostic VCI won't be able to communicate with all the ECUs..... There are cheaper clones that are missing components, so are cheaper.
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by lenny1972 »

Marc, my Diagbox version is 7.57.
Within the EPB section of the Diagbox there is an icon consisting of a yellow circle with a black star in the middle and the following message "Calculator not recognised" ( I've translated from Italian).
Within the Error section of this menu there are several errors and among them also the following error:
U1118 Communication fault with main ECU (BSI).
Anyway tomorrow I'll perform another Global Test with my Diagbox and report to you exactly all the error codes.
Hoping that this can help you to understand the problem and drive me through the right direction.
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, if you don't have communication with the ECU then there's not a lot you can do. This is probably why it is playing up. You'll need a full diagnostic and put up all the fault codes.
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by lenny1972 »

The strange think is that from the Diagbox I can communicate with the EPB and perform the EPB calibration procedure (it arm and disarm the EPB several times) or arm and disarm it "manually". If the EBP will not be recognised at all by the Diagbox I suppose I cannot communicate with it at all..Or I'm wrong? Tomorrow I'll perform another test (I'll switch the Diagbox interface to english in order to attach the Diagbox report in this thread after masquerading the sensitive data).
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by lenny1972 »

Here I am. So I've performed again a global test with Diagbox and below ther error codes registered.

In the ABS Traction control - (ECU type ESP81) section i see the follwing errors/faults:
- U1219 Fault automatic release of the electric parking brake
Properties
From . Distant .
Status . Temporary
Characterisation of the fault. Data invalid

List of associated variables
Vehicle speed 0 Kph
Front LH wheel speed 0 Kph
Front RH wheel speed 0 Kph
Rear LH wheel speed 0 Kph
Rear RH wheel speed 0 Kph
EBA regulation Deactivated
EBD regulation Deactivated
Anti-slip regulation with action on brakes (BASR) Deactivated
Anti-Slip with action on engine torque disconnected (ASR/ESR) Deactivated
Anti-engine brake regulation (MSR) Deactivated
Anti-Slip regulation with action on engine torque (ASR) Deactivated
Electronic Stability Program (ESP) regulation Deactivated
ABS regulation Deactivated
Recirculation pump activated No
Electric parking brake status On
Status of the "assisted holding" function Fault
Braking status No braking in progress
Yaw angle speed 000 °/s
Transverse acceleration -00.5 m/s²
Steering wheel angle -25.2 Degrees
Distance travelled since last time ignition switched on 0.0 km
Supply voltage 12.0 V
Braking pressure 00.0 Bars
Status of the ECU Partial
Longitudinal acceleration 0.00 m/s

- U2119 Fault - electric parking brake automatic release function wake-up status word reception problem
Properties
From . Distant .
Status . Temporary
Characterisation of the fault. Data invalid

List of associated variables
Vehicle speed 0 Kph
Front LH wheel speed 0 Kph
Front RH wheel speed 0 Kph
Rear LH wheel speed 0 Kph
Rear RH wheel speed 0 Kph
EBA regulation Deactivated
EBD regulation Deactivated
Anti-slip regulation with action on brakes (BASR) Deactivated
Anti-Slip with action on engine torque disconnected (ASR/ESR) Deactivated
Anti-engine brake regulation (MSR) Deactivated
Anti-Slip regulation with action on engine torque (ASR) Deactivated
Electronic Stability Program (ESP) regulation Deactivated
ABS regulation Deactivated
Recirculation pump activated No
Electric parking brake status On
Status of the "assisted holding" function No holding
Braking status No braking in progress
Yaw angle speed 000 °/s
Transverse acceleration -00.5 m/s²
Steering wheel angle -25.2 Degrees
Distance travelled since last time ignition switched on 3.0 km
Supply voltage 12.0 V
Braking pressure 00.0 Bars
Status of the ECU Transitory
Longitudinal acceleration -0.08 m/s

In the Electronic Parking Brake section instead the following errors:
- ECU not recognised

- U1213 Fault: absence of communication with the ESP ECU.
Properties
From . Distant .
Status . Permanent fault
Characterisation of the fault. Incorrect value received
List of associated variables
ECU not recognized : list of associated variables not available

- U1313 Fault: absence of communication with the ESP ECU
Properties
From . Distant .
Status . Permanent fault
Characterisation of the fault. Not characterised
List of associated variables
ECU not recognized : list of associated variables not available

- U1108 Fault absence of communication with the engine management ECU and the hybrid management ECU(if the hybrid management ECU is present)
Properties
From . Distant .
Status . Permanent fault
Characterisation of the fault. No signal
List of associated variables
ECU not recognized : list of associated variables not available

- U2000 Fault in receipt of the main triggering message by the built-in systems interface
Properties
From . Distant .
Status . Permanent fault
Characterisation of the fault. Not characterised
List of associated variables
ECU not recognized : list of associated variables not available

- U1118 Communication fault with the built-in Systems Interface(BSI)
Properties
From . Distant .
Status . Permanent fault
Characterisation of the fault. No signal
List of associated variables
ECU not recognized : list of associated variables not available

All the EPB related errors are probably due to the fact that the EPB ECU is not recognised by the BSI (and I think also by the ESP ECU).
I also note that alla the APS/ESP errors are "temporary" while the EPB ones are all "Permanent"

The "DATA INVALID" errors showed in the ABS/EPS errors are most probably due to the fact that the EPB cannot communicate in the right way with the ESP. I think that a not-recognised EPB can cause this "in-communication" of much probably "mis-communication" situation. I'm not trying to figure out if a missin "tecoding" of the second-hand EPB may cause this abnormal behaviour..
Some clues from your side and past experiences?
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, although the EPB has its own ECU, it is in fact 'managed' by the ESP / ABS ECU in a Master / slave relationship. The BSI has no direct control over the EPB - this is handled by the ESP ECU.

So your issue is likely more to do with the ESP ECU than the EPB ECU. Because there is an issue with the ESP, your vehicle has gone into backup mode, which means many features are not functioning whilst you have these faults (Cruise control, Hill start assist, Electronic Brakeforce Distribution & Emergency Braking Assistance for example).

These 'U' codes are all communication issues, so my first guess would be something has happened when the EPB was replaced - and I assume these faults started after the EPB was changed?

I would start by checking all the cables and connections (especially the CAN wiring) from the ESP unit for a start and make sure nothing has been interfered with the at the BSI connections.

Leave this with me and I will have a look at some of those codes shortly....
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so here is what I have on most of the fault codes. All these systems are interconnected via the CAN data network. If y ou have a fault in one of these ECUs, then the dependent ECUs will be getting incorrect or no data, which causes them to throw a fault. Your job will be to trace your steps (or the mechanics who did the job) and to ensure ALL the wiring connections are sound and that any connectors have been put back correctly and are tight. It won't be the first time we have seen this where the garage mechanics have forgotten to connect up a plug properly.

I can only assume it is something like this given that the other systems are complaining of no communication - so that is your biggest clue.

Fault Code: U1213 Fault - absence of communication with the stability control (ESP) ECU: Value received incorrect
Description of Fault: The ESP ECU sends out data that is invalid or information that is too short.
Conditions for Fault to clear: Reception of 3 consecutive items of valid information.
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active: Possibility 1
- Deactivation of automatic mode
- Ignition on: The electrically controlled parking brake releases if the button is not held
- Ignition off: The electrically controlled parking brake releases if you hold the button for less than 3 seconds.

Possibility 2
- Deactivation of the hill start assistance
- Dynamic braking by the electric parking brake.
Symptoms:
  • Illumination of LED/Error message
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake does not apply correctly
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake releases unexpectedly
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake does not release correctly
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake applies itself unexpectedly
  • The hill start assist is not working
Suspect Areas: Brake pedal switch
Electronic stability control (ESP)
Fault Code: U1219Electrically controlled parking brake automatic trigger fault: Data invalid.
Description of Fault: Possibility 1: The time for recording the fault code is 500 milliseconds
Problem with the electric parking brake.

Possibility 2: The time for recording the fault code is 500 milliseconds
Incorrect length of the datastreams transmitted by the electric parking brake.
Conditions for Fault to clear: Possibility 1: The electric parking brake operates correctly.
Possibility 2 :Correct length of the datastreams transmitted by the electric parking brake
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active: Possibility 1: The regulation functions remain active.
Hill start assistance function inactive.
Switching of the electric parking brake to manual mode.

Possibility 2: The regulation functions remain active.
Electric parking brake function inactive.
Switching of the electric parking brake to manual mode.
Symptoms: Lighting of the ABS and ESP warning lamps
Suspect Areas: CONNECTORS
Line CAN
ESP ECU
Fault Code: U1108 No communication with the engine management ECU fault: No signal
Description of Fault: The time of appearance of the fault code is 2 seconds.
No sending of information by the engine management ECU.
Conditions for Fault to clear: Sending of information by the engine management ECU.
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active: None
Symptoms: None
Suspect Areas: Connectors
CAN network
ESP ECU
Fault Code: U1313 Fault in the reception of the partial triggering message by the built-in systems interface (BSI).
Description of Fault: The dynamic stability control ECU causes functional faults.
Conditions for Fault to clear: Reception of 3 consecutive items of valid information.
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active: Deactivation of automatic mode.
Ignition on: The electrically controlled parking brake releases if the button is not held.
Ignition off: The electrically controlled parking brake releases if you hold the button for less than 3 seconds.
Symptoms:
  • Switching on of the warning lamp and/or warning message
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake does not apply correctly
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake releases unexpectedly
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake does not release correctly
  • Electrically-controlled parking brake applies itself unexpectedly
  • The hill start assist is not working
  • Loss of stability of the vehicle in dynamic braking
Suspect Areas: Electronic stability control (ESP).
Electric parking brake.
Fault Code: U2000 Fault - main triggering status word reception anomaly: Data invalid
Description of Fault: The time of appearance of the fault code is 1s.
Triggering word not received by the built-in systems interface.
Conditions for Fault to clear: Triggering word received by the built-in systems interface.
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active: No back-up mode
Symptoms: No switching on of warning lights but the built-in systems interface may request the switching on of warning lights.
Suspect Areas: BSI ECU
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by lenny1972 »

Thanks Marc,
I know for sure that the cable that connect the EPB to the other systems has a plug on the EPB itself (that is betwenn the two rear wheels on the bottom of the car) but I sincerely have no idea where the other hand of the cable is fitted. For what concerns the other connection (CAN wiring) that you suggest me to double-check is there a wiring diagram you can share with me in order to know which connectors check? Are theese connectors accessibile from within the cockpit or are them in the hood?
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The first place I would start is the actual 22 pin electrical connector on the EPB itself.

Here are the pin connections and as you can see, not all the connections are used. But as this is the one component that has been moved and manipulated whilst fitting and assuming it was not damaged and working properly before your received it, I would check all these physical pins to make sure they are not loose or have been separated from the electrical block. You can see the CAN High (15) and CAN Low (20) connections which will be the multiplexed links to the other vehicle systems. But check them all.
EPB D.PNG
Allocation of the channels of the black 22 -way connector
Channel n°Designation
1BATT+
2Earth
3Remote controlled triggering (RCD) signal information
4Electric parking brake control input
5Electric parking brake control output
6Not connected
7Not connected
8Not connected
9Electric parking brake control input
10Electric parking brake control output
11Not connected
12Not connected
13Not connected
14Not connected
15CAN H
16Not connected
17Not connected
18Not connected
19Not connected
20CAN L
21Not connected
22Not connected
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by lenny1972 »

Fantastic Mark, I'll start from there.
What about a clean with a spray contact-cleaner as a first step?
Your advices and info are really valuable and a great point to start from. I'll keep you updated
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Re: Second-hand Electric stationery brake not recognised

Post by GiveMeABreak »

It won’t hurt, but the issue is more likely a poor or missing connection or one of the wires has been cut or damaged possibly.
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