Please can someone help me!
I've just got a recon cylinder head for my Xanatia 2.0i 16v 1995/6 after my cambelt recently snapped. Before fitting the replacement Head I timed the DOHC using the timing holes on the cam-pully wheels, likewise I timed the crankshaft using the timing hole in the crankshaft pully.
I was shocked to see that the 2nd piston was on it's upstroke and nearly TDC, whilst the inlet valves on the corresponding chamber (on my yet to be fitted head) were down (ie. if I had fitted the head I would have ended up with bent valves)
My head looks to be timed perfectly (the valves are positioned the same compaired to a scrap head I've got) so I believe that the bottom end timing is where the problem lies. It might be possible that the previous owner fitted the crankshaft pully without the woodruff key therefore making the timing hole position irrelevant. Problem is that I can't get the bottom crank pully off to check, as the bolt has seized. Even my local garage couldn't budge it using their most powerful snap-on air gun!
Now to my question, does anyone know if it is possble to time the bottom end without the use of the crankshaft pully timing hole? Does anyone know which piston if any is TDC when the bottom end is locked in the timing position.
Please help, as I think it going to be impossible to remove the crankshaft pully to check it's location on the crank.
Any advice, and I mean any, is much appreciated.
Help! timing Xantia cambelt.
Moderator: RichardW
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DoubleChevron
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This is not abnormal.
You need to replace the crank pulley before the rubber in it collapses. If you look closely you will see it is a 2part pulley seperated by a ring of rubber. What has happened is outer part has moved out of whack with the inner part of the pulley. This is why the timing hole no longer lines up.
Your best bet is probably replacing the pulley before the rubber completely collapses and take yet another cambelt with it [:0]
seeya,
Shane L.
You need to replace the crank pulley before the rubber in it collapses. If you look closely you will see it is a 2part pulley seperated by a ring of rubber. What has happened is outer part has moved out of whack with the inner part of the pulley. This is why the timing hole no longer lines up.
Your best bet is probably replacing the pulley before the rubber completely collapses and take yet another cambelt with it [:0]
seeya,
Shane L.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by RandR</i>
Urr how were you thinking of changing the cam-belt with the pulley still on
the crank actually pins up at middle dead centre which, with the head off and an accurate rule, you could work out.
Good luck RR
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Thanks for the info RandR
This jobs been nothing but problems, first the crankshaft pully wouldn,t come off, we got around that by splitting the cover behind the pully, which enabled us to lift the cambelt over the bottom pully and directly onto the crankshaft cam gear. Then we find out that the pully's not on the crank in the correct position, which totally throws out our timing.
If only I'd took the time to change the cambelt before it snapped! I could have then marked the pully after first timing the camshafts.
On a brighter note we've managed to get the timing down to 5 possible positions (5 teeth) where the pistons don't actually touch the valves (we used the old cyl head to gently turn the crank with different pully positions after first timing the cams) so I've got a 1 in 5 chance on getting it right!! and with your info about being MDC I think we have a good chance of getting it going again. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks.
Urr how were you thinking of changing the cam-belt with the pulley still on
the crank actually pins up at middle dead centre which, with the head off and an accurate rule, you could work out.
Good luck RR
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Thanks for the info RandR
This jobs been nothing but problems, first the crankshaft pully wouldn,t come off, we got around that by splitting the cover behind the pully, which enabled us to lift the cambelt over the bottom pully and directly onto the crankshaft cam gear. Then we find out that the pully's not on the crank in the correct position, which totally throws out our timing.
If only I'd took the time to change the cambelt before it snapped! I could have then marked the pully after first timing the camshafts.
On a brighter note we've managed to get the timing down to 5 possible positions (5 teeth) where the pistons don't actually touch the valves (we used the old cyl head to gently turn the crank with different pully positions after first timing the cams) so I've got a 1 in 5 chance on getting it right!! and with your info about being MDC I think we have a good chance of getting it going again. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks.
RandR, How sure are you about this middle dead centre when the bottom pully is locked? I looked at it again this evening and I was able to get MDC. When the pistons are MDC you can see a small mark on the crank pully which seems to line up with the cambelt tensioner bolt and the crank pully bolt (if you make a line directly through the two bolts). It looks like one of the previous owners may have known about the incorrect positioning of the bottom pully and put this mark on the pully to time the bottom end. But unless I know exactly what he was using as a reference point I'm gunna be taking a huge risk by assuming this.
If I can confirm that all the pistons are middle dead centre when the bottom pully is locked in timing position then it's gunna make my job alot easier. Please could you or anyone else confirm this.
Once again thanks for taking the time to reply and helping me out of this frustrating problem.
If I can confirm that all the pistons are middle dead centre when the bottom pully is locked in timing position then it's gunna make my job alot easier. Please could you or anyone else confirm this.
Once again thanks for taking the time to reply and helping me out of this frustrating problem.
Now this is the 3.rd event with an owner having timing problems with a Xantia XU engine. ShaneL, Vanny and now you AndyL.
It's frustrating that these engines apearently does not follow the rules of thumb known from earlier engines.
DaveBurns, if you read this, could you please throw on some light to this problem. We really need some eaxct information from an experienced mentor [8)]
It's frustrating that these engines apearently does not follow the rules of thumb known from earlier engines.
DaveBurns, if you read this, could you please throw on some light to this problem. We really need some eaxct information from an experienced mentor [8)]
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DoubleChevron
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Hmm,
my problem was the camshaft pulley (or most probably the head) has been drilled at the wrong radious.
You can plainly see here the holes will never line up.
I think your problem is here:
Take a close look at the pulley, note the pulley can only lock into one position due to the woodruff key, however the OUTER part of the pulley CAN and DOES move on the rubber ring circled. This of course means the crank timing hole is now in the wrong position.[V]
So unless I've read the symptoms wrong, all you need to do is replace this pulley in order for the crank to be pinned correctly.
seeya,
Shane L.
my problem was the camshaft pulley (or most probably the head) has been drilled at the wrong radious.
You can plainly see here the holes will never line up.
I think your problem is here:
Take a close look at the pulley, note the pulley can only lock into one position due to the woodruff key, however the OUTER part of the pulley CAN and DOES move on the rubber ring circled. This of course means the crank timing hole is now in the wrong position.[V]
So unless I've read the symptoms wrong, all you need to do is replace this pulley in order for the crank to be pinned correctly.
seeya,
Shane L.
Your probably right DC, either that or the pulley has spun on the crankshaft chewing up the woodruff key (or the key was left out). Unfortunately I can't confirm this because the bottom crank pulley won't come off. The bolt is totally seized. 2 garages have tried using high powered air tools. We've even locked the engine using the flywheel but the bolt simply won't budge.
So I need to find an alternative way to get the pistons in the correct timed postion. RandR said that when the bottom crank is locked the pistons are all level and in the middle of their stroke (middle dead centre). If this is correct then my problems are over, as I can simply time up by carefully lining up the piston so they are all level at mid stroke, then time the DOHC using the normal method. From trail and error I know roughly within 5 teeth on the cambelt where the correct postion should be (I used my old wrecked head to check different belt positions) and MDC falls within these 5 teeth.
Please can someone confirm what RandR has said? Are the pistons exactly MDC when the bottom pully is locked? Many thanks AL.
So I need to find an alternative way to get the pistons in the correct timed postion. RandR said that when the bottom crank is locked the pistons are all level and in the middle of their stroke (middle dead centre). If this is correct then my problems are over, as I can simply time up by carefully lining up the piston so they are all level at mid stroke, then time the DOHC using the normal method. From trail and error I know roughly within 5 teeth on the cambelt where the correct postion should be (I used my old wrecked head to check different belt positions) and MDC falls within these 5 teeth.
Please can someone confirm what RandR has said? Are the pistons exactly MDC when the bottom pully is locked? Many thanks AL.
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DoubleChevron
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Hi,
before giving up on the crank pulley, try a tyre place that changes truck tires. They have MASSIVE industrial impact wrenches. I'm sure they would be able to loosen the crank nut for you. Once loose, do it it back upto a tension that you can manage yourself when you get the car back home.
seeya,
Shane L.
before giving up on the crank pulley, try a tyre place that changes truck tires. They have MASSIVE industrial impact wrenches. I'm sure they would be able to loosen the crank nut for you. Once loose, do it it back upto a tension that you can manage yourself when you get the car back home.
seeya,
Shane L.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DoubleChevron</i>
Hi,
before giving up on the crank pulley, try a tyre place that changes truck tires. They have MASSIVE industrial impact wrenches. I'm sure they would be able to loosen the crank nut for you. Once loose, do it it back upto a tension that you can manage yourself when you get the car back home.
seeya,
Shane L.
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Hi again Shane,
One of the two garages we tried suggested this, but I'm a bit worried about towing this car again with no engine. I nearly had a heart attack last time, towing with just a handbrake is not a lot of fun. Once I confirm the timing and get it running the first thing i'll do is take it to the closest truck mechanic to remove that darn bolt! There must be a mechanic out there who could verify this Mid Dead Centre thing when the pulley is locked.
Hi,
before giving up on the crank pulley, try a tyre place that changes truck tires. They have MASSIVE industrial impact wrenches. I'm sure they would be able to loosen the crank nut for you. Once loose, do it it back upto a tension that you can manage yourself when you get the car back home.
seeya,
Shane L.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi again Shane,
One of the two garages we tried suggested this, but I'm a bit worried about towing this car again with no engine. I nearly had a heart attack last time, towing with just a handbrake is not a lot of fun. Once I confirm the timing and get it running the first thing i'll do is take it to the closest truck mechanic to remove that darn bolt! There must be a mechanic out there who could verify this Mid Dead Centre thing when the pulley is locked.
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Dave Burns
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I've got no experience of this engine (or any other petrol engine for the last 16 years for that matter) but I think RandR's info on mid centre is correct.
If you have a Haynes 3082 K to S manual you will see a photo on page 2A.6 of the crank pulley locked in position, note the position of the keyway, taking into account the fact that the engine leans backwards by no small amount, the keyway looks to be at 90 degrees to to the verticle line of the cylinders (given the position of the water pump), so what I hear you say, well the keyways on these engines is machined in line with the big end journals, or if you prefer, the crankshaft throws, you'll see this on page 2C.12.
So the keyway pegged at the quarter too position would support the mid centre timing info, further confirmation can be had by timing the camshafts and then rotating them forwards by 45 degrees, when number one (flywheel end) cylinders valves and those of number four cylinder will be closed, further rotation will leave the valves closed on the firing cylinder and begin opening the intake valve on the other one, depending on the firing order, (bloody silly book does'nt even give you the firing order but its usualy 1 3 4 2) which you will see from the valve positions at the various camshaft pulley angles relative to the timing hole.
The picture that shane has posted, and the picture in the Haynes manual are at odds with each other due to the position of the timing hole relative to the keyway, but it makes no difference since you can confirm one way or the other the mid point timing by looking at what the camshaft's are doing at a further 45 degrees forward rotation from their timing location.
Dave
If you have a Haynes 3082 K to S manual you will see a photo on page 2A.6 of the crank pulley locked in position, note the position of the keyway, taking into account the fact that the engine leans backwards by no small amount, the keyway looks to be at 90 degrees to to the verticle line of the cylinders (given the position of the water pump), so what I hear you say, well the keyways on these engines is machined in line with the big end journals, or if you prefer, the crankshaft throws, you'll see this on page 2C.12.
So the keyway pegged at the quarter too position would support the mid centre timing info, further confirmation can be had by timing the camshafts and then rotating them forwards by 45 degrees, when number one (flywheel end) cylinders valves and those of number four cylinder will be closed, further rotation will leave the valves closed on the firing cylinder and begin opening the intake valve on the other one, depending on the firing order, (bloody silly book does'nt even give you the firing order but its usualy 1 3 4 2) which you will see from the valve positions at the various camshaft pulley angles relative to the timing hole.
The picture that shane has posted, and the picture in the Haynes manual are at odds with each other due to the position of the timing hole relative to the keyway, but it makes no difference since you can confirm one way or the other the mid point timing by looking at what the camshaft's are doing at a further 45 degrees forward rotation from their timing location.
Dave
Andy,
If you can identify the engine code for your car I'll send you the correct section from the Citroen Factory Manual. Each section which covers a particular engine gives reasonably detailed instructions on timing and belt changing.
The trouble is that there are so many engine variants I can't tell which one it should be. If you can't tell maybe someone else knows the engine code.
Let me know if I can help.
Cheers
noz[8D]
If you can identify the engine code for your car I'll send you the correct section from the Citroen Factory Manual. Each section which covers a particular engine gives reasonably detailed instructions on timing and belt changing.
The trouble is that there are so many engine variants I can't tell which one it should be. If you can't tell maybe someone else knows the engine code.
Let me know if I can help.
Cheers
noz[8D]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noz</i>
Andy,
If you can identify the engine code for your car I'll send you the correct section from the Citroen Factory Manual. Each section which covers a particular engine gives reasonably detailed instructions on timing and belt changing.
The trouble is that there are so many engine variants I can't tell which one it should be. If you can't tell maybe someone else knows the engine code.
Let me know if I can help.
Cheers
noz[8D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Noz, this would be very useful. The engine code is XU10J4R. Once again everyone thanks for your time and patience. I'm begining to feel a lot more upbeat with the information I've gained from the experts in this forum.
Andy,
If you can identify the engine code for your car I'll send you the correct section from the Citroen Factory Manual. Each section which covers a particular engine gives reasonably detailed instructions on timing and belt changing.
The trouble is that there are so many engine variants I can't tell which one it should be. If you can't tell maybe someone else knows the engine code.
Let me know if I can help.
Cheers
noz[8D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Noz, this would be very useful. The engine code is XU10J4R. Once again everyone thanks for your time and patience. I'm begining to feel a lot more upbeat with the information I've gained from the experts in this forum.
Thanks everyone, it's now up and running. [:D]
Timed up by getting all the pistons dead level, timed the DOHC using the locking pins. A couple of hours rebuild later, turned the key, Broommmm. Fired up first time, running better than it was before.
The only audiable problem I can hear is that I think I might have the cambelt a little snug. I have a very slight weeeerring noise coming from the belt area when reving the engine, although I've never really listened to the cambelt before with top cam cover off, so this might be normal?? It's tightened to the usual 45degrees twist under moderate pressure on the longest run, but my moderate pressure might be grim tight to someone else? I used a sqaure headed wrench on the tensioner to gain the tension, sould this only be adjusted by hand or was I right using the wrench?
<b>
Once again many thanks to everone who contributed to getting my car up and running. I certainly feel very chuffed knowing that i only spent £250 (which included the cly head, gaskets, cambelt, antifreeze, oil VAT etc...) to get this car running again when Citroen wanted £1500.
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Timed up by getting all the pistons dead level, timed the DOHC using the locking pins. A couple of hours rebuild later, turned the key, Broommmm. Fired up first time, running better than it was before.
The only audiable problem I can hear is that I think I might have the cambelt a little snug. I have a very slight weeeerring noise coming from the belt area when reving the engine, although I've never really listened to the cambelt before with top cam cover off, so this might be normal?? It's tightened to the usual 45degrees twist under moderate pressure on the longest run, but my moderate pressure might be grim tight to someone else? I used a sqaure headed wrench on the tensioner to gain the tension, sould this only be adjusted by hand or was I right using the wrench?
<b>
Once again many thanks to everone who contributed to getting my car up and running. I certainly feel very chuffed knowing that i only spent £250 (which included the cly head, gaskets, cambelt, antifreeze, oil VAT etc...) to get this car running again when Citroen wanted £1500.
</b>