DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

This is the Forum for all your Peugeot Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Wolds407
Donor 2020
Posts: 7
Joined: 23 Sep 2020, 21:29
x 1

DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by Wolds407 »

I thought I'd share a recent experience and would like to ask if there's anything I've missed.

Recently I welcomed my 6th Peugeot, a 70,000 mile 10-year old 407 SW 2.0HDi, and I've been giving her a thorough going over and service before putting her to work.

Having had issues with my 406 2.2 HDi additive system, I decided to check the additive. I was encouraged to see clearly using DiagBox that there should be 1639 ml in the additive tank. The reservoir volume was declared as 2160 ml. I had some additive so I thought I'd top up anyway and then let the ECU know what I had done. I watched a few videos and it seemed straightforward as it was on the 406. I filled via the breather and, although I didn't measure it, I reckon I poured in 2.5-3 litres from my 5 litre can before it reached the overflow. Quite an achievement I thought given the size of the reservoir and what was already supposed to be in there! Anyhow...

Informing the ECU is where I had most fun. Try as I might I couldn't find a place in DiagBox or PP2000 to 'reset the counter' as I did on the 406 and as I'd seen in the videos I'd watched for the 407. After a bit of head scratching I thought I'd look at my DiagBox which I bought back in 2013. Should be OK for a 2010 car I thought, but I found there were downloads on eBay to bring it up to v7.83 (from my v7.06). That was a very long night getting that installed! I also found Service Box 2013 on eBay - another long do! £2.98 and £1.99 respectively so didn't break the bank and were easy downloads when all sensible folk would be tucked up in bed.

Service Box was the first port of call. Was I doing it right? Was I using the right stuff? The filling process was right. The stuff I'd used was a worry. Service Box told me my additive was Infinium F7995, there are warnings about mixing, and a caution that "any other product causes a malfunction with the filtration system" 8-[ . I got in touch with CDTi who make the PatFluid I use and they reassured me after good discussion about 2nd and 3rd generation additives, Eolys Powerflex, compatibility etc. etc. that they've sold PatFluid since 2009 to replace additives specifically including Infineum F7995 so I should be good to use it in the 407. Phew! :)

DiagBox v7.83 opened up a lot more things for me to blunder through. What I thought was logical didn't bring up a way of telling the car she had a tank full of additive, but eventually I found how to declare the tank had been filled. Can't remember how I got there but it was a relief, because I know I had brimmed the tank and I had now told the brain exactly that. The parameters measurements now say 2160 ml in a tank with a volume 2160 ml. Good I thought, but what had gone on before concerned me. Had the tank been practically dry? If it had been, would the pump and injector have survived?

The only relevant actuator test I could find for the additive system was for the additive pump. I can hear it run so I'm hoping it is good. I couldn't find an actuator test for the additive injector like there was for the 406 system. (The 406 injector was supposed to click when tested and it did, but, as age took hold - or was it that additive I was using? - , it didn't so I went to a manual system with appropriate PPE...).

Along the way I saw something somewhere about priming or filling the additive system pipework but I cannot for the life of me find it again. Do any of you experienced folk know if there are any other steps I need to take to make sure I've got the 407 additive system properly filled and properly ready to go and keep going?

Thanks for coming this far! :wink:

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21208
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2115

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Different engines / models may have different additive systems - the older vehicles had a separate additive ECU, later vehicles have this function taken care of by the injection ECU. Some systems need the fuel circuit primed after resetting the additive counter, others don't.

The amount of additive in the additive tank is only estimated - there is no measuring device incidentally. You would of got a warning anyway had the level been deemed to be too low to cover the mileage remaining before the next service was due (based on the service due indicator). Don't update your Diagbox any further with these cars - or you will start to lose functionality (especially with the ability to manually telecode if required). I would stick to 7.62 tops as that covers vehicles way up until Nov 2015. Anything more is overkill.

Wolds407
Donor 2020
Posts: 7
Joined: 23 Sep 2020, 21:29
x 1

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by Wolds407 »

Thanks Marc. I had gathered the systems changed as time went on. I was initially quite impressed that it gave additive quantity and capacity in millilitres but then thought that, like the older systems, it probably wasn't gauged which is why it worried me that I could pour a lot more in that I'd reckoned after seeing the numbers. I don't know, and haven't been able to find out, but surely if somebody only puts a little bit but tells the brain it's been filled the 'level too low' warning wouldn't come up until long after the tank was dry (unless there is actually a low level switch in there).

I think I found my 407 has an Evolved BSI with software version 08.16, the diesel additive adding ECU is (correctly) marked as absent, the Engine ECU is a multiplexed BSI RHR DCM 3.4... To add to my confusion they talk of the BSI in DiagBox as 'upgraded', 'developed', 'Evolution', 'modified' in different places at different times seemingly dependent on which way the wind is blowing... Where am I going with this????

I put my VIN into DiagBox v7.83 so I guess it only allows me to see what is there and do what is possible (although when I was using v7.06 I could see and do some things and I'm certain I'm more than capable of screwing it all up!). I wonder if there's a way I can identify if my additive circuit needs to be primed? I thought it might have told me or taken me through a process. I'm just a bit worried that now I've filled the tank and told it so, it will go along merrily counting down the usage each time I fill up with diesel and show me those numbers as 'evidence', yet because I haven't primed the circuit no additive is actually getting squirted in. I've only been able to listen to the additive pump but can't find a test for the injector (assuming there is one) and who's to say that hearing a pump spin and an injector click proves that it's dosing if the circuit hasn't been properly primed?

The additive systems on these motors seem to be an Achilles' heel and if they're not working properly I imagine they can lead to premature DPF problems. I managed to keep my 406 going strong until it was 20 years old with lots of miles on the original DPF but I put that down to regular servicing using the right engine oil, top notch fuel, and also manually dosing additive at each fill up after the actuator tests showed the additive pump and injector had failed. Sadly, although she hid it well, rust got her in the end :(

Interesting what you say about updating DiagBox. In fact the installation instructions say "version 7.02 and version 7.57 is the most stable version, is the most perfect version, so if version 7.57 can meet your requirements, you don't need to spend a lot of time to upgrade to higher version". I don't think I can simply roll back to 7.62 that you recommend - it would probably have to be a reinstall stopping updates at that version. I might do that though if I think 7.83 isn't giving me all of the functionality I need.

Thanks for your wise words.

Duncan

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21208
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2115

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I'd leave it now Duncan - see how you get on as you may not even need or notice some of the functionality that was starting to be removed from later versions.

AS for the additive and specifically the fuel pump priming - I've noticed this more on at least one of the later engines and this caused a major headache for the member to resolve - so I would ignore it on your 407 as I suspect you have the DW10BTED4 engine on your 2.0 HDi.

Anyway, if you want me to check, then post up the VINs of both vehicles here and I'll take a look (VINs are automatically masked from public view when submitted, only staff can see them) and I'll see if this is applicable or not.

Wolds407
Donor 2020
Posts: 7
Joined: 23 Sep 2020, 21:29
x 1

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by Wolds407 »

Your a gentleman Marc. I'd like to avoid headaches with the 407 as she's got a lot of work to do. I'd be grateful if you could check whatever you can.

I think you're right it is a DW10BTED4 (RHF) as far as I can figure. VIN is VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] (born 4 March 2010 ;)).

The 406 is no more but I often wondered if it was something I didn't do that caused her additive system to fail. She was VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21208
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2115

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Right

So the 407 does have a separate Additive ECU, item (20) on the diagram below. This uses the EAS300 Addgo (Magneti Marelli) Additive ECU.

This system does not require any fuel circuit priming, but the additive ECU needs to be reset to zero after being topped up (Min quantity to be added should be 1 litre when topping up).
407 Additive ECU.PNG
As for the 406: This also has a separate additive ECU; item (30) on the diagram below and this one is an EAS100 Addgo (Magneti Marelli) ECU.
406 Additive ECU.PNG
So be wary of these - as they have been known to fail to reset after completing a top up operation (even by the dealer, often requiring a replacement ECU).

This problem has largely been removed on later cars with the engine ECU taking over control of the function.

Wolds407
Donor 2020
Posts: 7
Joined: 23 Sep 2020, 21:29
x 1

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by Wolds407 »

:o Wow! That's quick work Marc.

So, the 407:

She has a physical ECU but it must be 'informed' by another as when I run DiagBox ECU tests it looks for an additive ECU and says it as absent. That is fully consistent with configuration checks and other messages I see using DiagBox. I have managed to tell an ECU that the additive tank has been filled (I've just forgotten which one :oops: ) and the parameters measurements confirm the tank is full so I think all is well.

I took another look at my Service Box and found the same diagram too but I wasn't looking for an ECU before :roll: . I looked again at the procedures and thanks to you I have rediscovered the statement "Carry out the actuator test "filling of the pipe: additive pump - additive injector" ; Using the diagnostic equipment" at the end of the "Check - Fuel Additive Level" procedure. I can't find where I can run that test from though. However, as I haven't emptied the reservoir as per the check procedure, and provided my tank did have the 1639 ml in that it claimed to have, there shouldn't be a need. It would be nice to run it though just to be sure but if I can't I can't. I'm wondering now if 7.57 or 7.62 might have that functionality :-k .

As I put 2.5-3 litres of additive in I should be good for a long time shouldn't I? ...although I guess the countdown is from the 2160 ml full figure. We shall see and I'll check each service to see how things are going.

The old 406:

Yep, there certainly was a separate ECU on her and DiagBox could see it too. I did managed to reset the counter when I filled the additive but it logged intermittent faults in the background and subsequent actuator tests became less reliable until eventually they returned "Actuator failed" and I went manual dosing.

It's interesting to learn that there could have been a problem with the reset of those ECUs. Mine seemed to acknowledge the reset and no warnings ever came up on the MFD all the time I drove her.

It's great to hear you say that the problem has largely been removed on later cars. So can you guarantee 10 or more years of service from the 407? :-D

Thanks Marc. You're a star!

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21208
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2115

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Normally, the additive is checked and refilled at 75k intervals during dealer scheduled servicing, but can be topped up if needed in between.

For the separate additive ECU it should appear under a Global Test as one of the ECUs identified. You'll see it coming up as EAS100 or EAS300 depending on the vehicle, in the list of ECUs detected. Having said that, it may be that the communication is one of the issues that prevents a reset - I can't say, but I would expect that if the diagnostic tool can't communicate with it then it might be the reason why they can't be reset..... If yours has confirmed it has reset - leave well alone and don't tempt fate! :-D

Wolds407
Donor 2020
Posts: 7
Joined: 23 Sep 2020, 21:29
x 1

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by Wolds407 »

Yep, I wanted to catch mine in good time to avoid any problems with low levels, warnings, shutdowns or limping... She's only just over 70k so good timing I reckon.

The Global Test looks but skips the Additive Adding ECU line when it comes to it and I am convinced now that comms must be indirect. If I get time I'll plug back in and find the route I took to tell the relevant part of the brain that the additive has been filled. I'll pop a note on here if anyone else is interested. But yes, other than looking, I shall leave well alone! ;)

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 21208
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2115

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I'm sure the additive ECU was shown on my C5 MK II, but the dealer did mine, as I didn't want to take the chance that it went toes up :)

Wolds407
Donor 2020
Posts: 7
Joined: 23 Sep 2020, 21:29
x 1

Re: DPF fluid top up success (?) and some questions

Post by Wolds407 »

Here's the route I found using DiagBox v7.83 to inform my 407 that I'd filled her additive tank:

Anyone that happens upon this should bear in mind this is a late model 407 built in 2010 with what they describe as the modified BSI. I could not see these options using DiagBox v7.06 and so updated to v7.83. Other vehicles may need informing in different ways.

- Select Repair from the main menu and test by ECU
- Select the Engine Management ECU (DCM3.4)
- Acknowledge the warning
- Select Repair
- Select Pack Repair
- Select Replacement Parts
- Select Filling of the Additive Reservoir
- Follow on screen instructions

There was nothing like the old rigmarole with opening the fuel cap for a short time or anything like that. Simply tell the computer the tank has been filled, ignition off, ignition on as required and the job's done. It doesn't ask how much additive has been put in or anything.

Once finished you can go to the standard parameters measurements for the particulate filter (PEF) and see that the 'Amount of additive in the additive tank' equals the 'Additive reservoir volume'.

I found I could not repeat the reset and, as far as I can make out, it can't be undone. It concerns me that you can tell the computer the additive has been filled but you don't have to put much (or maybe anything) in the tank. Surely this could delay warnings and lead to those DPF related problems that we all fear... :-k

Whilst there I also looked on the Replacement Parts page at the 'Replacement of the Additive Reservoir, of the pump or of the pipes' (item 12 on the list). This seems to be where you should be able to fill or prime the additive system pipework. I couldn't find a specific actuator test as suggested in the Service Box procedure. No action was possible on my car and I'm hoping that's because the pipes are already full and the system already primed. Perhaps it's like telling the car that the additive has been filled, i.e. once it's done it's done, and the computer prevents you from repeating it unnecessarily until some parameter changes. Perhaps :-?
Attachments
1_Test byECU.png
2_Warning.png
3_Repair.png
4_Pack Repair.png
5_Replacement parts.png
6_Filling of the additive reservoir.png